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  • #16
    Originally posted by Filikieteria1821 View Post
    And it has continues under Mitsotakis. The cool thing to do in modern politics is to strongly condemn military operations, but to never get involved. Greece has been playing on the sidelines of international politics since 1974. The coup and subsequent invasion by the Turks seems to have permanent pussified Greece's policy makers.

    France and UK want to have an emergency security council meeting at the UN, which will likely result in nothing and the EU is drafting a "strongly" worded letter against Turkey
    What it can be as well is actual laziness. It is no inexplicable coincidence that the Greek strategy of let Turkey do what it wants the last 50 years also involves the least amount of actual work for the actual politicians. Strategy and planning requires actual brain function. At the end of the day, the politicians want to turn up to the Government buildings socialise and go home to the family. As long as the Turks don't invade their actual house, they wont do anything and the Greek people too are happy for nothing to be done. They live from day to day and don't plan or think of Greece's future. Only when the Turks are at the door of their actual houses will there a slight movement- and even then - that movement for most Greeks will probably be to settle in Germany or the UK where the Greek politicians will also already be - hiding there months in advance.

    Comment


    • #17
      Greece isn't capable of acting from a position of strength. That takes investment in the military. Our bumbling politicians aside, we are a vassal state and have been so for some time, but we could make life more difficult for Turkey with a stronger military capable of acting in our interest if need be. I would not encourage us to involve ourselves in the disastrous foreign policy practiced by the other countries who continue to waddle into the Middle East thinking they can somehow checkmate their rivals.

      As for Turkey, they are moving more and more in the direction of Iran and have effectively become something of a pariah state, a new bogeyman. The only difference between them and Iran is their geographical location meant they weren't totally ensnared by the Orient and have been able to straddle the divide with the Occident, but that's about to change. The more they accept overtures from the Communist Chinese and adopt more stringent Islamic views, the more they fall out of touch with the West and lose standing with countries better allied to our interests, including Russia.

      https://pjmedia.com/spengler/we-dont...d-to-get-them/

      "Don't let Turkey defect to Russia," wrote Wall Street Journal foreign policy columnist Walter Russell Mead earlier this year. Mead's colleague at the Hudson Institute, Michael Doran, has urged the U.S. to "salvage its strategic alliance with Turkey." They have a point, although the S-400 is the least of our problems. China will absorb Turkey into its technocratic empire and turn the Turkish economy into a branch of China's. Turkey is broke and China has money, and China has the technology that Turkey needs to recover.
      They're always crying foul about Russia, but it's China that Turkey will turn to.

      No competent military authority I know thinks that the United States has any effective military options against Iran at the moment, short of an all-out aerial attack. That's the result of two decades of neglect of military technology, as well as our complacency with respect to Iran's "asymmetric warfare" capability.
      The Saudis don't want a war with Iran, because they never would find out who won. The U.S. Navy doesn't want to blockade Iran because it might lose some ships. A regional war would push the oil price up to levels that would trigger a world recession and hurt an already-slowing U.S. economy.

      How did we get into this mess? The George W. Bush administration wasted trillions of dollars on a wild goose chase after Middle East democracy, following neo-conservative advice to export democracy. Instead of updating our weapons systems, we wasted blood and treasure on an illusion. Obama responded by strangling the military budget and degrading our mission. The big defense contractors didn't mind; they got to sell the same outdated systems to the Pentagon at premium prices.

      A tenth of the money we wasted on the Quixotesque quest for Middle East democracy would have given us the weapons to foil Iran, intimidate Turkey, and keep Russia and China out of the region.
      I couldn't have said it better myself.

      Trump's pull out from Syria is significant. It's the beginning of a huge shift in policy. At the risk of the US going bankrupt, there is no choice but for a broader pull out. The US is a waning empire now in retreat.

      Mr. Republican, Robert Taft, had it right. A big, strong US military, but a restrained foreign policy is the key to keeping US interests in better standing. The same goes for Greece. We need a strong military, but we can't involve ourselves in these foreign policy disasters. If Turkey wants to invade Syria, let her do so. When the dust settles, Turkey will have wiped out the Kurds and western countries will need to apply the same sort of crippling sanctions that Iran has endured for decades. They'll have to turn to China when that happens.

      Comment


      • #18
        Lindsey Graham, in tandem with Chris Van Hollen have introduced a bill that would implement sanctions on a ton of Turkish policy makers.

        Also, would stop weapons sales to Turkey and would put in effect CAATSA sanctions for their purchase of the s400.

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        • #19
          https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/...rkey-sanctions


          © Anna Moneymaker

          Sens. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) and Chris Van Hollen (D-Md.) on Wednesday announced that they have reached an agreement on new sanctions against Turkey after the country launched a military operation in northern Syria.

          "I am pleased to have reached a bipartisan agreement with Senator @ChrisVanHollen on severe sanctions against Turkey for their invasion of Syria," Graham said in a tweet announcing the deal.

          He added that "while the Administration refuses to act against Turkey, I expect strong bipartisan support. ...Most Members of Congress believe it would be wrong to abandon the Kurds who have been strong allies against ISIS."
          I am pleased to have reached a bipartisan agreement with Senator @ChrisVanHollen on severe sanctions against Turkey for their invasion of Syria.

          While the Administration refuses to act against Turkey, I expect strong bipartisan support. pic.twitter.com/Ph5fIVt7k3

          — Lindsey Graham (@LindseyGrahamSC) October 9, 2019


          The deal between the two senators comes after they announced on Monday that they were working on sanctions legislation in the wake of Trump's decision to yank U.S. troops out of northern Syria ahead of a planned Turkish military operation.

          Turkey began airstrikes and shelling against Kurdish forces in northern Syria on Wednesday and, hours later, moved ground troops into the country after Trump pulled back U.S. troops.

          The sanctions bill, according to a fact sheet shared by Graham, would sanction any U.S. assets of Turkish leadership, including Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan.

          The bill would also target Turkey's energy sector and military, including sanctions against "any foreign person who sells or provides financial, material, or technological support or knowingly does a transaction with Turkish military."

          It would also prohibit U.S military sales to Turkey and restrict the ability for Turkey's leadership to travel to the United States.

          "Today @LindseyGrahamSC and I are announcing a framework for sanctions against Turkey to respond to their military operation in northeastern Syria, which is already underway. These sanctions will have immediate, far-reaching consequences for Erdogan and his military," Van Hollen added in a tweet.
          Our bill includes sanctions on:
          → Turkey's political leadership
          → Military transactions with Turkey
          → Turkey's domestic energy sector

          It will also:
          → Prohibit U.S. military support for Turkey
          → Trigger 2017 CAATSA sanctions
          → Restrict U.S. visas for Turkish leadership https://t.co/nugcPRlMFD

          — Chris Van Hollen (@ChrisVanHollen) October 9, 2019


          Trump is facing fierce backlash from both sides of the aisle for his decision to pull U.S. troops out of northern Syria. Lawmakers warn that it could bolster the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria (ISIS) and endanger the Kurds, who have allied with the United States to fight the terrorist organization.

          Trump distanced himself from Turkey's military operation earlier Wednesday and indicated that he would support additional sanctions.

          “I think Lindsey would like to stay there for the next 200 years and maybe add a couple a hundred of thousand people every place, but I disagree with Lindsey on that,” Trump told reporters at the White House. “But I will tell you that I do agree on sanctions, but I actually think much tougher than sanctions if [Erdogan] doesn’t do it in as humane a way as possible.”

          Under the bill, sanctions against Turkey would remain in effect until the administration certifies to lawmakers that Ankara has withdrawn its forces from Syria.

          Comment


          • #20
            Good. Trump is right about using tougher sanctions. He'll have to do it in the end.

            Comment


            • #21
              Our NATO ally:

              https://www.reuters.com/article/us-syria-security-turkey-europe/turkeys-erdogan-threatens-to-send-syrian-refugees-to-europe-idUSKBN1WP1ED

              President Tayyip Erdogan said on Thursday Ankara will send the 3.6 million Syrian refugees in Turkey to Europe if European countries label the country’s military incursion in Syria as an occupation.

              “We will open the gates and send 3.6 million refugees your way,” Erdogan said in speech to lawmakers from his AK Party.

              Comment


              • #22
                Will anyone in the EU respond back that's an act of war if Turkey were to do that? Our is the EU too busy threatening the UK?

                Comment


                • #23
                  It's sad to sit back and hope the EU will respond in any meaningful way. They are a bunch of frauds, spineless garbage. You also have members like Hungary who apparently support Turkey in its quest to ethnically cleanse the Kurds from Syria.

                  https://hungarytoday.hu/hungary-oppo...y-war-kurdish/

                  According to der Spiegel and other media outlets, Hungary first torpedoed the European Union’s declaration condemning the Turkish military intervention in north-east Syria. While Hungarian diplomats denied this, PMO Chief Gergely Gulyás said they had agreed “in a written compromise.”

                  According to the German weekly which refers to several EU diplomats, Hungary was the only member who issued a veto while all other EU countries agreed. This resulted in the delay of the issue of the declaration which has eventually been accepted – with Hungary’s support – in the evening. By then, Turkish forces had already launched their attack which resulted in several casualties.

                  The final, agreed-upon declaration (which can be read in its entirety here) calls “…upon Turkey to cease the unilateral military action. Renewed armed hostilities in the northeast will further undermine the stability of the whole region, exacerbate civilian suffering, and provoke further displacements. Prospects for the UN-led political process to achieve peace in Syria will be more difficult.” It also says that “unilateral action on Turkey’s part threatens the progress achieved by the Global Coalition to defeat of Da’esh [ISIS].”

                  US President Donald Trump revealed on Monday that the US would withdraw its forces from a Kurdish-controlled zone in northern Syria. Kurdish forces, together with Syrian opposition troops (SDF), helped a US-led Western coalition to beat ISIS in Syria. The withdrawal prompted Turkish president Erdoğan to attack this area, a decision accompanied by the protest of several international actors.

                  Luxembourg’s Minister of Foreign Affairs Jean Asselborn commented on Hungary’s decision that “it can’t be that a country like Hungary repeatedly blocks the EU on its own,” adding, that “if we can not even come up with a statement together, we’re not even a dwarf in foreign affairs, we’re nonexistent.”

                  Hungarian diplomats, however, denied the news. The Hungarian government’s official EC Commissioner nominee, Olivér Várhelyi, labeled the information “fake news.” At his regular press briefing on Thursday, PMO Head Gergely Gulyás stated that they “didn’t want to disrupt the unity of V4 and the EU, and therefore agreed in a documented compromise. Peace is the aim, and the Hungarian government rejects war as a tool used to sort out differences between countries. At the same time, the Hungarian Government is of the firm opinion that if Turkey takes steps to return the 4 million refugees from its territory to their own country, it must be supported,” he added.


                  The EU can't even issue a strongly worded letter without some members disagreeing lmao. We're expecting this fraud of a political union to go ahead and send warships to Cyprus or Aegean to protect Greece and/or Cyprus?

                  It's a pipe dream. I hope someone has the stones to do something versus the Turks. The American sanctions are the closest thing to effective we are going to get in this scenario.


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                  • #24
                    EU wont do anything. They see the UK as the threat not Turkey. That is why the UK voted Brexit... the EU are Ottoman enablers- always have been.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      The EU has made too many mistakes and is moving in the wrong direction. That said, the UK has done a lot in the past to help prop the Turks up and they still retain strong relations with them.

                      The man now leading the fight for Brexit is himself part Turkish.

                      https://www.arabnews.com/node/1531301

                      [Boris] Johnson’s great-grandfather was an Ottoman journalist and politician who briefly served as the Ottoman education and internal affairs minister in 1919.


                      And the UK was far from helpful in denouncing Turkey's recent dispute with Cyprus:

                      https://greece.greekreporter.com/2019/05/16/uk-recognizes-cyprus-sovereign-rights-calls-on-turkey-to-halt-drilling/

                      The Foreign Office’s statement clearly calls on Turkey to stop its intended drilling in the Eastern Mediterranean.

                      ”We have called on Turkey not to drill in this area,” the statement noted.

                      However, the British ministry did not withdraw the phrase which terms the vicinity where the Turkish vessel ”Fatih” is stationed, an ”area where sovereignty is under dispute.” This aspect of the statement appears to be an attempt to mollify Ankara.


                      London’s persistence in repeating that the area is ”under dispute,” using a phrase of diplomatic ambiguity, demonstrates that the UK is attempting to keep Turkey close at a time when Britain’s future relationship with the European Union’s member-states seems uncertain.


                      Comment


                      • Filikieteria1821
                        Filikieteria1821 commented
                        Editing a comment
                        The UK and Britain have been close for a long time. Remember, in an effort to divide and conquer Cyprus, GB allowed Turkey into the fold as a guarantor power of Cyprus. Prior to that, Turkey didn't give a shit about TC's

                    • #26
                      Originally posted by Don Giovanni View Post
                      The EU has made too many mistakes and is moving in the wrong direction. That said, the UK has done a lot in the past to help prop the Turks up and they still retain strong relations with them.

                      The man now leading the fight for Brexit is himself part Turkish.

                      https://www.arabnews.com/node/1531301



                      And the UK was far from helpful in denouncing Turkey's recent dispute with Cyprus:

                      https://greece.greekreporter.com/201...halt-drilling/





                      True but a few things.

                      There is a reason Boris Johnson speaks Ancient Greek and not Turkish. This is the reason. This is what the Turks did to his great grandfather:

                      On 4 November 1922, Kemal was kidnapped from a barber shop at Tokatliyan Hotel in Istanbul, and was carried to the Anatolian side of the city by a motor boat en route to Ankara for a trial on charges of treason. On 6 November 1922, the party was intercepted at İzmit by General Nureddin Pasha, then the Commander of the First Army, which was aligned with Mustafa Kemal Pasha. Kemal was attacked and lynched by a mob set up by Nureddin with sticks, stones and knives, and hanged from a tree. His head was smashed by cudgels and he was stoned to death. As described by Nureddin personally to Riza Nur, who with Ismet Inönü was on his way to Lausanne to negotiate peace with the Allies, "his blood-covered body was subsequently hanged with an epitaph across his chest which read, 'Artin Kemal'". This bestowal of a fictitious Armenian name administered a final indignity to the victim.
                      Another thing. Germans and Turks are historic allies. WW1 and the reward for that loyalty - 4 million Turks in Germany originally brought in as guest workers. Germany will always appease Turkey and seeing as Merkel controls the EU...

                      Comment


                      • #27
                        Good to know. We can't rely on other countries. Greece has to forge her own destiny in the end and find a way to develop more of backbone or we'll always remain tied to the wills and whims of other powers.

                        Comment


                        • #28
                          Originally posted by Don Giovanni View Post
                          Good to know. We can't rely on other countries. Greece has to forge her own destiny in the end and find a way to develop more of backbone or we'll always remain tied to the wills and whims of other powers.
                          These days are the best days there have ever been for a country with a small army to make waves.

                          One other thing. Notice how that worm Tsipras is now talking tough on the Turks invading Syria and how the hermaphrodite Greek media are giving him so much air time. When he was in power he spent the entirety of his time with his mouth sown to Erdogan's bum-hole like something out of the film human centipede.

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                          • #29
                            Statement by Virginia State Senator Richard H. Black (R-District 13

                            Turks are notorious enemies of Kurds.

                            For two years, I warned Kurdish leaders that the U.S. would abandon them soon. It did not matter who was president or which political party was in power. Our determination to leave was not a secret. The U.S. could not remain in Syria indefinitely.

                            Unless Kurds quickly reconcile with the government of Syria, Turkey will capture northern Syria. Once Turkey is in control, they will eliminate Kurds from the entire region. Kurds must act without further delay in order to survive.

                            Turkey has amassed an army of 158,000 terrorists for an imminent attack on the SDF. U.S. troops are withdrawing, and Turkish bombers are conducting airstrikes to prepare for the assault. The U.S. is unlikely to provide arms or ammunition for Kurds to defend themselves in the looming battle.

                            Kurds are alone, just as they were in Afrin. The U.S. did not defend you then, and it will not defend you now. Only the Syrian government can help. If Turkish-led terrorists seize the ground, it may be impossible for the Syrian Army to recapture it. If Kurdish leaders delay, even Syria may be unable to help.

                            Turkey intends to resettle two million of its most violent, battle-hardened terrorist families in northern Syria. Turkey enjoys excellent relations with ISIS. They will free your ISIS captives, if possible, and unleash them to fight against the SDF.

                            If Turkey is able to occupy northern Syria, they will gradually purge Kurds through murder, rape, forced marriage, and intimidation. Over time, no Kurds will remain in Turkish-controlled parts of Syria.

                            I hope that Kurds will not be ethnically cleansed. But unless you act immediately, that will happen. The Syrian Arab Army may be able to save its Kurdish people by quickly reoccupying northern Syria. But if you delay in reconciling with Damascus, even Syria may be unable to help.

                            My prayers are with Kurds and all others in northern Syria. May God give your leaders the wisdom to act without delay.
                            He's a retired colonel and Vietnam combat veteran with over 30 years of service, active and reserve, in the US Marines and Army.

                            I can only hope Syria reclaims as much of their territory as possible, something the Kurds will have to help them do.

                            Comment


                            • #30
                              Originally posted by Don Giovanni View Post
                              Statement by Virginia State Senator Richard H. Black (R-District 13



                              He's a retired colonel and Vietnam combat veteran with over 30 years of service, active and reserve, in the US Marines and Army.

                              I can only hope Syria reclaims as much of their territory as possible, something the Kurds will have to help them do.
                              I am not sure the Kurds have the IQ to make this deal will Assad tonight or ever. They are communists after all.

                              Every inch of Syria the Kurds lose, will in the future be part of the Turkish Republic.

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