Fed up with leftist channel bosses playing Turkish Soaps 24/7

[Reaper]

First of all, why do you think they aren't our claims?

They are not Greece's claims because they are sovereign entities protected by international law and treaties. The UK does not claim the Isle of White. It belongs to the UK the same way Kastelorizo belongs to Greece. You are using the language of the Turk here. Where 'claims' are made or defended is on ambiguously controlled land - for example - The Western Saraha:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Sahara

Or the new nations of Bosnia, Kosovo etc.

I haven't watched a lot of Turkish series, so I don't know what's the case for all of them, but, in the one I am watching right now, I haven't noticed anything bar a few flags, which you would see in some Greek series as well. The series takes place in a hospital in Constantinople and it shows the hardships and struggles the patients have to face, as well as showcasing the terrible state of the roads in Turkey, where accidents are very usual. I repeat, I haven't watched any Turkish series expect this one, but I suppose you haven't as well.

Doesn't bother me how many you watched or what you in particular feel about them. I explained above how I and many others feel about Turkish subsidised soft power propaganda TV shows. The Turks admit it is propaganda, Erdogan championed them finacially and his government has a major role in how they are produced - they come attached with rules created by the Turkish government.. most people accept the reality that these shows are manipulated for soft power. You are in that rare group of trying to talk up a state subsidised self admitted piece of soft power propaganda to other Greeks. That is your right and on the plus - I am sure many Turks would welcome your comments as well of those of the international apologist left. In places like the Peloponnese however? Your admiration for these soaps would be not so welcome to put it mildly.

I believe that, if a series is good, people all over the world should watch it, regardless of where it was made.

You seem to be purposely refusing to accept these shows are part of a state subsidised project by Erdogan. Again. Not to be confused with massively popular shows like the Mexican Una Familia Con Suerte by the privately owned Televisa.. I believe if a nation is trying to steal another's land illegally - their state funded TV shows - that they admit themselves are created to push their soft power.. should not be top of the list for a Greek of any description to defend.. I say Greek - I do not include the Greek left in that statement. Also the left are known for playing dumb. For example - if a Turkish state sponsored TV series does not feature the line 'Turkey is the best!!' - a leftist could claim that the Turkish series is not propaganda and they could further play dumb to the meaning of soft power - which is just that. Let's put the definition of soft power down here - and how the Turkish culture minister used it relating to these soaps.

Soft power meaning:

In politics, soft power is the ability to attract and co-opt, rather than coerce. In other words, soft power involves shaping the preferences of others through appeal and attraction. In 2012 Joseph Nye of Harvard University explained that with soft power, "the best propaganda is not propaganda", further explaining that during the Information Age, "credibility is the scarcest resource".

Turkish culture minister on these series:

Turkey's exports of home-grown television dramas plays a key role in wielding soft power in across the region, a Turkish culture minister has claimed.

By creating a lasting influence on Turkey's image in the region, wildly popular dramas are among the country's most well-known economic and cultural exports, said Turkish Minister of Culture and Tourism Omer Celik on Thursday.

We aren't playing Civilization V or any other strategic game with Turkey trying to get a cultural victory using these series to gain influence.

They are funding these series via the state to win the propaganda war. They admit this and it is obvious, why does that hurt you? You can state their propaganda does not work on you - however - by your passionate defence - I would say they have done their job on you and the Turkish taxpayer has got their money's worth for producing them as far as you are concerned.

Nowadays, everyone has the freedom to choose what to watch and I don't think there are any sane people whose opinion about a country is affected by a series...

I think millions upon millions of people - many who are uneducated - many who are educated - especially those on the left - need to be told what to think. That is why they make pseudo moralistic generalisations such as 'all nations have good and bad' despite some nations committing genocide periodically and other nations - the worse they have done is make some boring cheese.. The left seek to use relativism. The Turks and 100s of other nations are aware of this weakness and exploit it. These shows are not designed for people like Don, myself or Filikieteria. They are designed for the soft left or uneducated/ naive / young, so that people start to see Turkish perspective and repeat to Greeks what 'their claims' may be.. 'but it is not so simple.. bla bla bla..' - 'we are all human..etc etc' to muddy the waters and sadly, on certain minds - it works. Look at you trying to sell a Turkish soap to Greeks!

Your example doesn't work out that well, because, unlike your case when the neighbor has been making my life difficult for years, the people who created the series I am watching (actors, producers) are just ordinary people

These shows are state subsidised by the Turkish government. Even private tv station heads / newspaper bosses etc have all been replaced with pro erdogan insiders. This is the 5th time you have been told these soaps designed to be sold globally are not ordinary innocent pieces of art. So yes, my analogy works. Those North Korean tourguides who spread propaganda to Western tourists in North Korea are just normal people too.. so what? Doesn't mean their words or their actions to others are not insidious instructions from the North Korean regime.

I didn't even know before and have never harmed me.

We are talking about the Turkish state harming Greece daily. Undermining Greece's sovereignty daily. Bringing us close to war daily. Of course non Greeks should not care and watch as much Turkish state subsidised and state orchestrated Turkish soaps as they want with a free conscious. However, even Egypt is banning these soaps now and other nations Turkey is harming are doing the same and correctly so.

This is where you are wrong, we shall not hate every single Turk

That is called a straw man. That is a very very common tool used by the left. No one is telling you to hate every Turk. No one on this forum hates every Turk. I do not hate any Turks - not one. It is about protecting and shielding Greece from Turkish state subsidised soft power propaganda and Erdogan's ambitions.

Most of them are tired of him after all and the unstability he has bought to their nation.

The most common leftist statement made about Turkey the last 10 years and deeply untrue. To give leftists their credit, they have slowed down on this line since Erdogan's last election win. He is popular and democratically popular. The majority of Turks who can vote - vote for him. His propaganda machine - including the soaps you are working very hard to defend.. are part of that process. A minority of Turks dislike Erdogan and I deeply understand the need for the left to concern themselves about a minority in any shape of form, but as far as Greece is concerned - it is about survival - not speaking up for a minority of Turks..

All in all, Turkish series should be the least of our worries and could even be an example of how we should also try and ''sell'' some of our OWN series to other countries.

The Greek government is not attempting to steal anyone's land like Turkey is doing with Greece, Syria, Libya etc. If Greece was - it would indeed be wise to state sponsor some shows perhaps to try and sell to the world Greece's world view the way Erdogan does Turkey's. However - why stoop to their level even then? Greece should only be aiming for those foreigners who use logic - not worrying about those who watch state sponsored soaps. A better plan is banning all soft power Turkish soaps.

Before you respond - to understand the site better and understand why you are alone on this particular topic - have a brief read of the forum rules. There is another forum out there that may be a little more suited to your beliefs on this particular subject called Phantis. That forum caters to the left and also tries to see positives in Turkish state sponsored soft power plays, Turkish state sponsored mosque building across the globe, Turkish state funded schools and universities across the globe etc etc. Of course you will always be allowed to post here and share your views - but you will gain little agreement apologising for state sponsored self admitted Turkish propaganda on this forum.. especially any propaganda aimed at weakening Greece and srengthening Erdogan's Turkey - no matter how minimal. Now if perhaps you wish to extol the beauty of some Turkish song, beach or beautiful dish, that is a different matter and not part of Erdogan's vast soft power program.

[Don Giovanni]

The Turks want to portray their country as modern and progressive. It's a lie! That's the propaganda!

Of all the people I have to argue with on these forums, you take the cake. I tell you to stop promoting Turkish-state funded shows and not to encourage others to watch them. What do you do? The exact opposite. Instead you try to convince us that it's a good show, if anything we should watch it.

Do you even realize how strange it is that you are watching a Turkish remake of a Korean show? Why isn't the Korean show dubbed in Greek and Turkish? There's an even an American version of this same stupid show, why aren't they showing that version instead?

And of course if you actually thought any of that through, the answers becomes self-evident. The Turks made it cheaper for Greek television to show their version. That's why. And those leftists idiots who run ERT are as dumb as you.

And that proves the Turks aren't in it for the money. Their willing to sell their show for peanuts because their only concern is trying to promote an image of Turkey that is false to Greek audiences! That's the goal.

It's propaganda!

[Filikieteria1821]

Given the state of Greco-Turkish affairs and the constant questioning of Greek sovereignty, even if a turkish soap was merely just for entertainment purposes, who really wants to watch it?

But really lets get one thing straight - the turks are not naive, the people who pay for these shows know exactly what they're doing when they push to have these shows played in the balkans.

A few years back I was actually working with a woman from Vardaska (refuse to use the name they want to be called by). She fawned over a turkish actor that I guess was in a turkish show she was watching. The question really is, why doesn't her home country? or Albanian side produce a show to watch, but we get Turkish soaps on?

Let's not get it twisted. Turkey is the big kid on the block and it has gotten so powerful and influential that it has the ability to engage in its dream of exerting political/cultural/military influence in the territories it used to own. Sure the actors and directors may be common folk who don't really care about greco-turkish relations, or any other ottoman entity, but the people who pay for the production, and the people who sit down at tables brainstorming ways to expand turkey's influence in the region know very well that they need a naive mindset from a bunch of peoples in order to slide through the back door and maintain a big presence.

Hence why I called for a complete ban on all turkish soaps on greek television.

People have to realize something sooner rather than later. We are currently in a soft war with Turkey. Their plans of cutting up our territories and denying us our rights are open for the world to see. Erdogan jumps at the chance to announce his plans at every opportunity he sees and he publishes maps to back up his plans.

Why on earth should we give the turks the benefit of the doubt that they have a tv show that is merely just for entertainment?

Call me racist or whatever but I live by the premise highlighted in this youtube clip:

Because our fellow countrymen and women have been burned time and time again by these people and I refuse to believe that they are merely seeking to entertain the world. What they're seeking to do is recreate the ottoman empire. You can ask the kurds how they feel, and take a look at the demographic engineering policies in Afrin which are just the same as the turks did in northern cyprus.

[AEKftw21]

They are not Greece's claims because they are sovereign entities protected by international law and treaties. The UK does not claim the Isle of White. It belongs to the UK the same way Kastelorizo belongs to Greece. You are using the language of the Turk here. Where 'claims' are made or defended is on ambiguously controlled land - for example - The Western Saraha:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Sahara

Or the new nations of Bosnia, Kosovo etc.



Doesn't bother me how many you watched or what you in particular feel about them. I explained above how I and many others feel about Turkish subsidised soft power propaganda TV shows. The Turks admit it is propaganda, Erdogan championed them finacially and his government has a major role in how they are produced - they come attached with rules created by the Turkish government.. most people accept the reality that these shows are manipulated for soft power. You are in that rare group of trying to talk up a state subsidised self admitted piece of soft power propaganda to other Greeks. That is your right and on the plus - I am sure many Turks would welcome your comments as well of those of the international apologist left. In places like the Peloponnese however? Your admiration for these soaps would be not so welcome to put it mildly.



You seem to be purposely refusing to accept these shows are part of a state subsidised project by Erdogan. Again. Not to be confused with massively popular shows like the Mexican Una Familia Con Suerte by the privately owned Televisa.. I believe if a nation is trying to steal another's land illegally - their state funded TV shows - that they admit themselves are created to push their soft power.. should not be top of the list for a Greek of any description to defend.. I say Greek - I do not include the Greek left in that statement. Also the left are known for playing dumb. For example - if a Turkish state sponsored TV series does not feature the line 'Turkey is the best!!' - a leftist could claim that the Turkish series is not propaganda and they could further play dumb to the meaning of soft power - which is just that. Let's put the definition of soft power down here - and how the Turkish culture minister used it relating to these soaps.

Soft power meaning:

In politics, soft power is the ability to attract and co-opt, rather than coerce. In other words, soft power involves shaping the preferences of others through appeal and attraction. In 2012 Joseph Nye of Harvard University explained that with soft power, "the best propaganda is not propaganda", further explaining that during the Information Age, "credibility is the scarcest resource".

Turkish culture minister on these series:

Turkey's exports of home-grown television dramas plays a key role in wielding soft power in across the region, a Turkish culture minister has claimed.

By creating a lasting influence on Turkey's image in the region, wildly popular dramas are among the country's most well-known economic and cultural exports, said Turkish Minister of Culture and Tourism Omer Celik on Thursday.




They are funding these series via the state to win the propaganda war. They admit this and it is obvious, why does that hurt you? You can state their propaganda does not work on you - however - by your passionate defence - I would say they have done their job on you and the Turkish taxpayer has got their money's worth for producing them as far as you are concerned.



I think millions upon millions of people - many who are uneducated - many who are educated - especially those on the left - need to be told what to think. That is why they make pseudo moralistic generalisations such as 'all nations have good and bad' despite some nations committing genocide periodically and other nations - the worse they have done is make some boring cheese.. The left seek to use relativism. The Turks and 100s of other nations are aware of this weakness and exploit it. These shows are not designed for people like Don, myself or Filikieteria. They are designed for the soft left or uneducated/ naive / young, so that people start to see Turkish perspective and repeat to Greeks what 'their claims' may be.. 'but it is not so simple.. bla bla bla..' - 'we are all human..etc etc' to muddy the waters and sadly, on certain minds - it works. Look at you trying to sell a Turkish soap to Greeks!



These shows are state subsidised by the Turkish government. Even private tv station heads / newspaper bosses etc have all been replaced with pro erdogan insiders. This is the 5th time you have been told these soaps designed to be sold globally are not ordinary innocent pieces of art. So yes, my analogy works. Those North Korean tourguides who spread propaganda to Western tourists in North Korea are just normal people too.. so what? Doesn't mean their words or their actions to others are not insidious instructions from the North Korean regime.



We are talking about the Turkish state harming Greece daily. Undermining Greece's sovereignty daily. Bringing us close to war daily. Of course non Greeks should not care and watch as much Turkish state subsidised and state orchestrated Turkish soaps as they want with a free conscious. However, even Egypt is banning these soaps now and other nations Turkey is harming are doing the same and correctly so.



That is called a straw man. That is a very very common tool used by the left. No one is telling you to hate every Turk. No one on this forum hates every Turk. I do not hate any Turks - not one. It is about protecting and shielding Greece from Turkish state subsidised soft power propaganda and Erdogan's ambitions.



The most common leftist statement made about Turkey the last 10 years and deeply untrue. To give leftists their credit, they have slowed down on this line since Erdogan's last election win. He is popular and democratically popular. The majority of Turks who can vote - vote for him. His propaganda machine - including the soaps you are working very hard to defend.. are part of that process. A minority of Turks dislike Erdogan and I deeply understand the need for the left to concern themselves about a minority in any shape of form, but as far as Greece is concerned - it is about survival - not speaking up for a minority of Turks..



The Greek government is not attempting to steal anyone's land like Turkey is doing with Greece, Syria, Libya etc. If Greece was - it would indeed be wise to state sponsor some shows perhaps to try and sell to the world Greece's world view the way Erdogan does Turkey's. However - why stoop to their level even then? Greece should only be aiming for those foreigners who use logic - not worrying about those who watch state sponsored soaps. A better plan is banning all soft power Turkish soaps.

Before you respond - to understand the site better and understand why you are alone on this particular topic - have a brief read of the forum rules. There is another forum out there that may be a little more suited to your beliefs on this particular subject called Phantis. That forum caters to the left and also tries to see positives in Turkish state sponsored soft power plays, Turkish state sponsored mosque building across the globe, Turkish state funded schools and universities across the globe etc etc. Of course you will always be allowed to post here and share your views - but you will gain little agreement apologising for state sponsored self admitted Turkish propaganda on this forum.. especially any propaganda aimed at weakening Greece and srengthening Erdogan's Turkey - no matter how minimal. Now if perhaps you wish to extol the beauty of some Turkish song, beach or beautiful dish, that is a different matter and not part of Erdogan's vast soft power program.

Well, maybe, I used the word ''claim'' in the wrong way. I just realized it is something you contest, which is certainly not the case for the Greek islands of Aegeum nor for any other Greek piece of land. I wasn't trying to interpret that the situation with the islands is the same with the situation in Western Sahara or Kosovo...

I live in Athens and there are people who watch Turkish series, as well as any other Greek or foreign series, depending on whether they like it or not. My opinion about the topic was the same before watching the series, the series didn't at all affect me. If a series has morals and you like the plot, you don't have to be taken aback by the fact it was produced in Turkey. Not everything that comes out of Turkey is bad and not everything that comes out of Greece is good. Trust me, I am not waiting for a series to teach me the situation in Turkey. I know they are struggling, I know there is civil unrest and all of this will get worse, as their top banks have reportedly gone bankrupt. I am watching the news now and the unemployment rate is getting higher and higher every day, surpassing 25%...

Afterall, the hidden aim of this series might be to brainwash us, but, while I may be speaking for my self, but I don't think they have succeeded. While Turkey might be a top tourist destination, I don't think the series have played any part on this. Even if, indeed, Erdogan is trying to influence via this series, I will keep watching it because, in my opinion, it is a pretty good series. I assure you, if I noticed something against my country in the series I am watching, I would lose my interest.

As I said before, I don't wish to stir up politics with the matters, but I'd like to state that I fully trust and support the current government, but I haven't really been so occupied with politics in recent times. I think that, during the 4 years the government was mainly leftist, Greece managed to recover from this horrible crisis, but the government itself was instable and unreliable.

Your analogy with North Korea is,again, wrong. While the North Korean brainwashed citizens will do everything to convince the few brave tourists that North Korea is superior, a series wasn't made to serve this purpose.

At the end of your post, you said that admiring a Turkish song or dish isn't bad, so watching a practically innocent series could be the same.

[Don Giovanni]

Look, you're free to watch what you want. But you need to remember, people who watch these shows help to keep them on the air and help to maintain their popularity.

My best advice is you should go on a English speaking Turkish forum if you want to talk about this show. Personally, I'm done talking about this show and I'm done talking to you unless you start making more sense.

[Reaper]

Well, maybe, I used the word ''claim'' in the wrong way. I just realized it is something you contest, which is certainly not the case for the Greek islands of Aegeum nor for any other Greek piece of land. I wasn't trying to interpret that the situation with the islands is the same with the situation in Western Sahara or Kosovo...

The reason the Turks use the language 'Greek claims' is to weaken Greek sovereignty. Imagine me meeting your mother and saying - 'so this is the woman you claim is your mother?'

I live in Athens and there are people who watch Turkish series, as well as any other Greek or foreign series, depending on whether they like it or not. My opinion about the topic was the same before watching the series, the series didn't at all affect me.

Maybe it did and you don't realise it? You used the old Erdogan 'Greek claims' and you don't seem to understand the Turkish Government subsidised these series to legitmitise their nation, make foreigners hear the Turkish language - Turkey - a nation that has invaded two sovereign nations in the space of a year (Syria/Libya) and violated Greek territory daily for the last few decades. All you can think of is the handsome doctor.. Seems their plan worked and it was Turkish tax payer's money well spent on you at least. However we are liberal on here. It is your right to be brainwashed by Turkey's attempts at soft power.

If a series has morals and you like the plot, you don't have to be taken aback by the fact it was produced in Turkey.

No one has to do anything. It is about legitimising a threatening nation - so instead of concentrating your fire on protecting Greece - you are trying to sell a Turkish Government funded series to other Greeks on a forum. Have not seen you much in the Turkey topic or the 100s of topics about what they have been doing to Greece. This shows it works on certain minds.

Not everything that comes out of Turkey is bad and not everything that comes out of Greece is good.

Relativism..

It is about protecting Greek sovereign land that is under direct threat. Good and bad does not come into it. This is not preschool. This is about a hostile nation - with a hostile government - voted in by a majority of patriotic and nationalist Turks. This is about them spending billions on TV shows, Mosques across the globe, PR in all forms to promote their nation to make the conquering easier..

Trust me, I am not waiting for a series to teach me the situation in Turkey.

That is not the aim. The aim is soft power. To familiarise yourself with Turkey so you come out with statements like: 'Not everything that comes out of Turkey is bad and not everything that comes out of Greece is good' while the same Turkish Government who made your sweet doctor drama tells the world Greece's claims on their sovereign land are bogus.

I know they are struggling, I know there is civil unrest and all of this will get worse, as their top banks have reportedly gone bankrupt. I am watching the news now and the unemployment rate is getting higher and higher every day, surpassing 25%...

You sound sad for them. They are still humans right? Even though they voted in a guy who wants to redraw the Aegean map to the detriment of Greeks..

Afterall, the hidden aim of this series might be to brainwash us,

Not 'might.' is. And it is not hidden. The Turkish minister of Culture explained why they subsidise these shows.

but, while I may be speaking for my self, but I don't think they have succeeded.

Reading your posts, they have succeeded with you.

While Turkey might be a top tourist destination, I don't think the series have played any part on this.

Wrong.. again...

https://www.dailysabah.com/tourism/2...st-in-istanbul

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-t...-idUSKCN0YV0V1

Even if, indeed, Erdogan is trying to influence via this series

Not if. The agenda is not hidden like you pretend.

I will keep watching it because, in my opinion, it is a pretty good series. I assure you, if I noticed something against my country in the series I am watching, I would lose my interest.

The series are about legitimising Turkey. Considering they are actively destroying Greek sovereignty - these series damage Greece directly.

Your analogy with North Korea is,again, wrong. While the North Korean brainwashed citizens will do everything to convince the few brave tourists that North Korea is superior, a series wasn't made to serve this purpose.

Wrong, the series are subsidised to promote and legitimise Turkey. Korean tour guides are employed for the same purpose.

At the end of your post, you said that admiring a Turkish song or dish isn't bad, so watching a practically innocent series could be the same.

Did Erdogan create Köfte to legitimise Tukrey and push Turkish soft power? Nope. So you will not meet resistence saying how you enjoy eating it. Did he pioneer and tax fund the mainly loss making TV series, foreign mosque building projects, foreign Turkish university and school projects? Yes. So no, they are different. One is natural, the other - insidious.

On another topic, how did you enjoy your stint in the Greek army? Where abouts are your greek parents from seeing as you are from Athens? Do you go back and visit their home towns?

[AEKftw21]

The Turks want to portray their country as modern and progressive. It's a lie! That's the propaganda!

Of all the people I have to argue with on these forums, you take the cake. I tell you to stop promoting Turkish-state funded shows and not to encourage others to watch them. What do you do? The exact opposite. Instead you try to convince us that it's a good show, if anything we should watch it.

Do you even realize how strange it is that you are watching a Turkish remake of a Korean show? Why isn't the Korean show dubbed in Greek and Turkish? There's an even an American version of this same stupid show, why aren't they showing that version instead?

And of course if you actually thought any of that through, the answers becomes self-evident. The Turks made it cheaper for Greek television to show their version. That's why. And those leftists idiots who run ERT are as dumb as you.

And that proves the Turks aren't in it for the money. Their willing to sell their show for peanuts because their only concern is trying to promote an image of Turkey that is false to Greek audiences! That's the goal.

It's propaganda!

Well, look. Imagine you are the chairman of SKAI. Things have started to get better and people have been tired of hearing about corona all day and night...So, you want to fill the night hours where most people watch TV. You can either put a reality show which would be hard to shoot under the current circumstances or put some series. That usually doesn't come cheap, so it is logical they went for the cheap option, as it also has amazing reviews. Btw, I knew there was a Korean and American version, but I chose the Turkish one, because it is on TV so it would be absolutely free.

Anyways, this whole conversation seems to be leading nowhere. You haven't even watched the series I am watching and neither have I watched any other Turkish series. As I said, the one I am watching does not contain any propaganda, but that might not be the case for the other ones...

[AEKftw21]

The reason the Turks use the language 'Greek claims' is to weaken Greek sovereignty. Imagine me meeting your mother and saying - 'so this is the woman you claim is your mother?'

Lol, it was just poor choice of words. Of course, every single accre of land, from Kerkyra, to Thrace, to Kastelorizo, to Lesbos, to Crete ect is absolutely Greek and no one can doubt it.

Maybe it did and you don't realise it? You used the old Erdogan 'Greek claims' and you don't seem to understand the Turkish Government subsidised these series to legitmitise their nation, make foreigners hear the Turkish language - Turkey - a nation that has invaded two sovereign nations in the space of a year (Syria/Libya) and violated Greek territory daily for the last few decades. All you can think of is the handsome doctor.. Seems their plan worked and it was Turkish tax payer's money well spent on you at least. However we are liberal on here. It is your right to be brainwashed by Turkey's attempts at soft power.

Maybe there has been a slight misunderstanding. I never meant to say that ALL Turkish series are innocent, as I haven't watched many anyways.


No one has to do anything. It is about legitimising a threatening nation - so instead of concentrating your fire on protecting Greece - you are trying to sell a Turkish Government funded series to other Greeks on a forum. Have not seen you much in the Turkey topic or the 100s of topics about what they have been doing to Greece. This shows it works on certain minds.

The only thing I did was mention the series and say it would be worthwhile to check it out. First of all, I didn't join the forum in order to talk about politics. I was searching for a forum about Greek football which isn't dedicated to a specific club, like AEK.com or RDNA ect.. Your points are based on few reports you read, while mine are based on a single series I have watched, so it is normal that this isn't going anywhere.

Relativism..

It is about protecting Greek sovereign land that is under direct threat. Good and bad does not come into it. This is not preschool. This is about a hostile nation - with a hostile government - voted in by a majority of patriotic and nationalist Turks. This is about them spending billions on TV shows, Mosques across the globe, PR in all forms to promote their nation to make the conquering easier..


Well, this is the world we are living in...You can't really say a whole nation is good or that a whole nation is bad. Of course there will be nations with good reputation, but that's often the case because they aren't ''big'' enough to influence the global scene. It seems to me that you have overrestimated the effects of soft culture. A series isn't as dangerous as you think it is. When it comes to Erdogan, I understand why he has so much success in Turkey, despite the fact that a portion of his success is attributed to corruption. Turks, unlike us Greeks will opt to unite in order to accomplish ''their goals''. We Greeks, since the times of Pericles, have engaged in many conflicts between ourselves. Plus, in the eyes of many Turks, Erdogan is their saviour. Erdogan speeches make people think that they are constantly under threat and they have been made to believe that Erdogan is the only reason they have survived. Simply enough, Erdogan has been fighting with every single country around him, in order to keep his supporters believing that he will make Turkey a top power, like Russia or China.

That is not the aim. The aim is soft power. To familiarise yourself with Turkey so you come out with statements like: 'Not everything that comes out of Turkey is bad and not everything that comes out of Greece is good' while the same Turkish Government who made your sweet doctor drama tells the world Greece's claims on their sovereign land are bogus.

You yourself said that we shall not hate every Turk...

You sound sad for them. They are still humans right? Even though they voted in a guy who wants to redraw the Aegean map to the detriment of Greeks..

Ha, I'm not. It is their fault they did not get into the EU and are still using Liras, because of their stupid dominant approach. I just wanted to cite that I am aware of the horrible economic state there.

Not 'might.' is. And it is not hidden. The Turkish minister of Culture explained why they subsidise these shows.

Who cares? There is sadly a dark side behind everything. Take sports broadcasters for example. You know they have destroyed the beautiful game, to the point that UEFA is threatening associations who refuse to continue their league seasons. But we are still splashing our cash at them, in order to watch our beloved team and players play. Isn't this kinda similar?

Reading your posts, they have succeeded with you.

Wouldn't say so.

Wrong.. again...

https://www.dailysabah.com/tourism/2...st-in-istanbul

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-t...-idUSKCN0YV0V1

Wow, I didn't expect that. I see no reason why Constantinople shouldn't be a tourist destination, but it's sad that people don't know how scenes and editing works during filming.


Not if. The agenda is not hidden like you pretend.



The series are about legitimising Turkey. Considering they are actively destroying Greek sovereignty - these series damage Greece directly.

As I mentioned before, have you watched a minute of the series? You will see it isn't that bad. These series damage Greece directly? What? Is there a chance I will die?


Wrong, the series are subsidised to promote and legitimise Turkey. Korean tour guides are employed for the same purpose.

North Korean citizens will be executed should they say something wrong, the country is a vivid copy of 1950s USSR. I don't think the actors in these series can be compared to the enslaved citizens of North Korea...

Did Erdogan create Köfte to legitimise Tukrey and push Turkish soft power? Nope. So you will not meet resistence saying how you enjoy eating it. Did he pioneer and tax fund the mainly loss making TV series, foreign mosque building projects, foreign Turkish university and school projects? Yes. So no, they are different. One is natural, the other - insidious.

You have a point there...It isn't the same, but both of them are generally innocent, related to the dangers Turkey poses.

On another topic, how did you enjoy your stint in the Greek army? Where abouts are your greek parents from seeing as you are from Athens? Do you go back and visit their home towns?

Haven't started my stint yet.... Don't know all of this is related, but my mother was born in Athens and my father was born in Chania. I go there whenever I find the chance...

[Reaper]

Lol, it was just poor choice of words. Of course, every single accre of land, from Kerkyra, to Thrace, to Kastelorizo, to Lesbos, to Crete ect is absolutely Greek and no one can doubt it.

Of course, just pointing out those words are the exact ones Turks use to describe Greek islands in the aegean. I am sure it was just a mistake.

Maybe there has been a slight misunderstanding. I never meant to say that ALL Turkish series are innocent, as I haven't watched many anyways.

Those produced to be exported are part of the Turkish government plan. That is why they are never dubbed (Turkish Govt rule). You have been been watching Turkish propaganda. As stated before, they do not have to scream - 'Love Turkey, hate Greece.' All they are designed to do is familiarise the sheep with the Turkish language, a few Turkish flags and some 'we are all human shit..' Anything to distract from Turkey's direction...

You yourself said that we shall not hate every Turk...

Right - where have I said I hate any Turks? You think because the majority of Turks continually voted in a man who wants to steal Greek land I hate Turks? Stop being such a leftist. Again. This is about protecting Greek land. Stop bringing straw men and emotionalism into it.

Ha, I'm not. It is their fault they did not get into the EU and are still using Liras, because of their stupid dominant approach. I just wanted to cite that I am aware of the horrible economic state there.

Yea, but as Shakespeare wrote, the lady dost protest too much...

As I mentioned before, have you watched a minute of the series?

Why would I watch a minute of a Turkish Govt produced piece of soft power? Why would any non leftist Greek for that matter? Why would anyone willing want to hear that language?

These series damage Greece directly?

Yes, they seek legitimise a nation dangerous to Greece. It is one of the most common tactics of a predator since the dawn of time - seek to legitimise and normalise any associations with your nation.

What? Is there a chance I will die?

That is a straw man again.. Tsipras liked using them too.. Look where he got him. Note it.

North Korean citizens will be executed should they say something wrong, the country is a vivid copy of 1950s USSR. I don't think the actors in these series can be compared to the enslaved citizens of North Korea...

? Turks who refuse to push Erdogans' agenda end up in prison often or on the run. How far left do you have to be to ignore that?

You have a point there...It isn't the same, but both of them are generally innocent, related to the dangers Turkey poses.

Nope. The series are designed to win weak hearts and simple minds abroad. There is a reason that their biggest viewership in the Balkans is young women. They make this garbage so when Turkey invades - slaughters, undermines - there will be idiots - real natural born idiots - making apologies for Turkey - like you tried before when you stated the majority of Turks dont like Erdogan... These series help these types - they help them talk about 'not all Turks want to invade the aegean..' 'A common humanity..' etc etc etc..

Haven't started my stint yet...

I know you haven't. Your posts reflect that.. You must be approaching the age, hopefully you wont keep putting it off when the time comes..

Don't know all of this is related, but my mother was born in Athens and my father was born in Chania. I go there whenever I find the chance...

Nice, I didn't mean that, I mean where in Greece is your mother from originally- where were her family from? Somewhere north? Do you visit the relatives up there. Athens is a new city.. No one is originally from there. I have started visiting my pappou's village and made a lot of friends there.

[AEKftw21]

Of course, just pointing out those words are the exact ones Turks use to describe Greek islands in the aegean. I am sure it was just a mistake.



Those produced to be exported are part of the Turkish government plan. That is why they are never dubbed (Turkish Govt rule). You have been been watching Turkish propaganda. As stated before, they do not have to scream - 'Love Turkey, hate Greece.' All they are designed to do is familiarise the sheep with the Turkish language, a few Turkish flags and some 'we are all human shit..' Anything to distract from Turkey's direction...



Right - where have I said I hate any Turks? You think because the majority of Turks continually voted in a man who wants to steal Greek land I hate Turks? Stop being such a leftist. Again. This is about protecting Greek land. Stop bringing straw men and emotionalism into it.



Yea, but as Shakespeare wrote, the lady dost protest too much...



Why would I watch a minute of a Turkish Govt produced piece of soft power? Why would any non leftist Greek for that matter? Why would anyone willing want to hear that language?



Yes, they seek legitimise a nation dangerous to Greece. It is one of the most common tactics of a predator since the dawn of time - seek to legitimise and normalise any associations with your nation.



That is a straw man again.. Tsipras liked using them too.. Look where he got him. Note it.



? Turks who refuse to push Erdogans' agenda end up in prison often or on the run. How far left do you have to be to ignore that?



Nope. The series are designed to win weak hearts and simple minds abroad. There is a reason that their biggest viewership in the Balkans is young women. They make this garbage so when Turkey invades - slaughters, undermines - there will be idiots - real natural born idiots - making apologies for Turkey - like you tried before when you stated the majority of Turks dont like Erdogan... These series help these types - they help them talk about 'not all Turks want to invade the aegean..' 'A common humanity..' etc etc etc..



I know you haven't. Your posts reflect that.. You must be approaching the age, hopefully you wont keep putting it off when the time comes..



Nice, I didn't mean that, I mean where in Greece is your mother from originally- where were her family from? Somewhere north? Do you visit the relatives up there. Athens is a new city.. No one is originally from there. I have started visiting my pappou's village and made a lot of friends there.

Well, didn't know these series had such a great influence lol. Having one Turkish prime time series isn't bad at all, though. But, I wouldn't wish the Greek TV ending up like that...

''In North Macedonia, Öyle Bir Geçer Zaman Ki (As Time Goes By) ranked in January 2013 the top in terms of viewers, according to Nielsen Media Research.^[26] In fact, Turkish shows are so successful in North Macedonia that the government has passed a bill to restrict broadcasts of Turkish series during the day and at prime time in order to reduce the Turkish impact on Macedonian society.

But the point is that, like I am willing to go though 2-3 annoying ads in order to enjoy a YouTube video, I am also willing to see few intentionally used Turkish flags and hearing the Turkish language, which isn't really that bad for a person who likes languages, in order to enjoy a TV series.

Politically speaking, Tsipras shouldn't be the prime minister of Greece, there are better candidates, but let's appreciate that, despite all odds, he helped us stay in the EU, remain economically stable and saved many people. Let's remember for once that we were in a very bad state under him, but that was all because of the previous governments, who really messed up big time.

About the comparison I made, I never said that innocent and non innocent people in Turkey who are against the government aren't imprisoned. But, let's please not compare any country, not even Turkey's Erdogan with North Korea. Things are REALLY bad there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_...in_North_Korea.

When it comes to Turkey, if there isn't any social unrest, why did they almost start a coup in 2016? I've spoken to many Turks in the internet (mostly young people abroad) and they do not support Erdogan as much as you deem them to do. The chances of a Greek-Turkish war, let alone any war between any European nations in the next years is extremely unlikely. There will be disputes, but we might even be able to improve our relations a bit. Keep in mind that the United Nations, NATO and the EU would do anything to punish Turkey if things got tense. You use Syria and Libya, 2 nations devestated and torn apart by 2 fierce civil wars, as an example of why we might be the next targets. But, this is not true. Our army and navy have shown Erdogan that we aren't vulnerable and that we won't even tolerate the loss of even one of our 2500 islands, no matter if we are talking about a big island like Chios or an unnamed dry inhabited rock.

On another note, one of my relatives recently sat down and traced my mother's family tree all the way back to 1830 and even published a short historical book, which included mentions of my ancestors. Turned out my pro-pro-pro-pro-pro-pappous was born in Vienna, in a time where neither Austria and Germany were sovereign states, but, instead, many different municipalities formed the great Austrian Empire. So, my ancestor along with his brother move to the newly indenpendent Greek nation. So, my ancestor moved to Greece along with his brothers and started one of the first bakery shops in Athens, which was very undeveloped then. He married a Greek woman and pretty much became a Greek after that. My grandfather was born in Kerkyra, but I've never visited. We have a small space of land there.

[Reaper]

Well, didn't know these series had such a great influence lol.

You still are fighting hard against the term soft power. Great influence is a straw man. Soft power is influence through nuance. Turkish authorites don't make these shows so a Greek goes out and proclaims everyone should convert to islam or some other leftist straw man.. What the Turks hope to achieve is Greek leftists repeating what you did. Simply that these are normal people, normal series from a normal country. Normal actors! These series seek to normalise a hostile nation - nothing more. You know, all they really want is to encourage the usual left wing European relativist bullshit..'All countries have good and bad.. we are all human.. a show is just a show.. etc etc Anything away from the reality - Turkey is a majority Sunni muslim nation concerned with expanding its borders at the expense of Greece, Syria and others, expanding its influence through vast foreign mosque building projects in the Balkans and further afield, schools and universities built acorss the globe by Turkish taxpayers and soft power projects like crappy TV shows that must be in the Turkish language and convince low IQed viewers - mainly women.. that Turkey is a 'normal country' and not an expansionist Sunni state with a history of genocide, forced conversions to Islam, pogroms and massacres - a nation that has fired 10,000s of teachers and public servants for not being pro islam enough. A nation that replaced TV executives, newspaper editors and even CEO's with pro Erdogan replacements. The shows on TV are just the tip of the problem. They have done some real work with education..

The government of Recep Tayyip Erdoğan and the Justice and Development Party (AKP) pursue the explicit policy agenda of Islamization of education to "raise a devout generation" against secular resistance,in the process causing lost jobs and school for many non-religious citizens of Turkey.

In 2013, several books that were previously recommend for classroom use were found to be rewritten to include more Islamic themes, without the Ministry of Education's knowledge. Traditional stories of Pinocchio, Heidi, and Tom Sawyer were rewritten to include characters that wished each other a "God-blessed morning" and statements that included "in Allah's name"; in one rewrite, one of the Three Musketeers converted to Islam.

But the point is that, like I am willing to go though 2-3 annoying ads in order to enjoy a YouTube video, I am also willing to see few intentionally used Turkish flags and hearing the Turkish language, which isn't really that bad for a person who likes languages, in order to enjoy a TV series.

It fits your politics, so nothing to worry about. I actually think you will make friends if you try and sell this particular Turkish series as hard as you have tried to us - to your fellow military cadets when the time comes to your service and honour you family history you have documented. You should also when talking about Turkey to them - state Greece is not perfect either etc etc if anyone gets to harsh on the Turkey barbarity theme. Basically everything you have said here - say there. I find younger minds are far more open to Islamic expansion. propaganda or expression. I am sure the majority of them too will look past the Turkish government series being propaganda on any level. I think it will make you very popular with your fellow cadets and even staff sergeant.

Politically speaking, Tsipras shouldn't be the prime minister of Greece

He isn't. His rotten ass was booted out in a ND landslide because of the damage he did Geece. More people voted him out of office than voted him in when he won previously! He encouraged many who had not voted previously to vote just remove him. Tsipras actually only got into power because of a dismal turn out.

there are better candidates, but let's appreciate that, despite all odds, he helped us stay in the EU

Greece voted in a referendum to stop paying inflated debts to the EU banks on their sick terms. Tsipras then went against the referendum result stabbing the electorate in the back. He did the same with the North Macedonian name issue. A majority did not want to allow his deal - he ignored them and forced it through to reward a people who helped his communist pappou's side in the Greek civil war.. North Macedonians are allowed to even call their Bulgar dialect 'Macedonian!' However there is a theme here - the left's dislike of majorities.. Tsipras went against majorities in the referendum and concerning North Macedonia because the left naturally dislike majorities or as they associate them - populists..

remain economically stable and saved many people.

There is no evidence more people would have died or had lost their jobs had Greece defaulted or negotiated a better deal than Tsipras capituatled to. Even Varoufakis could not believe how low Tsipras bowed to Germany. Greece has suffered immensely since joining the EU.

Let's remember for once that we were in a very bad state under him, but that was all because of the previous governments,

He simply did the bidding of the German and French banks. Nothing more, nothing less. Many of his party were made up of former PASOK ministers who switched party to gain power. So his party included culprits..

About the comparison I made, I never said that innocent and non innocent people in Turkey who are against the government aren't imprisoned.

No one said you did. The comparison is that in North Korea - if you have beliefs against the president - you are in major trouble. In Turkey, prison or you lose your job and your family may go without enough food as a result. Either way - this is not a normal country and the comparison with with North Korea is valid. North Korea also lets threatening other countries the way Turkey does - hence why Turkey has threatened Greece with a guarantee of war if Greece claims an EEZ of 12 miles - even on your maternal island of kerkyra which is no where near Turkey! In a normal country like Greece or Italy - if you do not like the government - you are not arrested or fired, or executed. To make any apology of Turkey is repulsive to the extreme. Humans deserve better. They deserve better than China, North Korea or Turkey offers them and Greece deserves better than their propaganda on its TV screens, no matter how mild..

You But, let's please not compare any country, not even Turkey's Erdogan with North Korea. Things are REALLY bad there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_...in_North_Korea.

Just as it is your right to watch Turks speaking Turkish on Greek TV as funded by the Turkish Government to push their agenda - and attempt to sell that shit to Greeks on a forum, it is the right of a European to compare how North Korea deals with anti government with how Turkey does - China too is also valid. Prison, losing jobs, death, camps... North Korea is a more extreme version of Turkey but the authoritarian asiatic anti democratic theme is present in both - they just have different methods. The European left feels far more comfortable with Turkey - especially with victimhood of islam to boot. North Korea is a bit too mysterious for the left. China however - they have been apologising for China since Corona kicked off.

When it comes to Turkey, if there isn't any social unrest, why did they almost start a coup in 2016?

Social unrest does not mean a majority of the country is unsatisfied with the leadership. That is a common leftist myth peddled as an apology for dictators they like. The social unrest under Thatcher was far far bigger than what happened in Turkey the last 20 years - but she still won landslide election victories because like Erdogan, the vast majority of the country supported her..

Humans are capable of saying something to you and than doing something different in the ballot box.

I've spoken to many Turks in the internet (mostly young people abroad) and they do not support Erdogan as much as you deem them to do.

They say that to foreigners often. What they say at home to their family is usually different. I have worked directly with Turks in the office - forget chatting to Turkish men online. All of them criticised Erdogan in the office. When alone with their families at a meal - it was the opposite. I was often invited to their houses when they discovered my family had houses in Turkey. The Koran allows not only Turks but all muslims to lie to stupid Westerners about how religious they are. It is called Taqiya. Of course there are a few genuine anti Erdogan Turks, but they are a firm firm minority. Most Turks are deeply proud of Erdogan and Turkey - however they know they can make more naive western friends by playing the contrarian soft leftist.

I used to work with one Turk who was from Northern Cyprus. I said this on another related topic but I suspect you have not read those topics. Anyway, he used to sell tickets to clubs to the women in my office as a side income. He had obviously made a deal with a promoter and they both took a cut. What was interesting was he was so liberal - just like your friends online! Didn't like Erdogan, loved going out - partying. He would often have a crowd of people like you around him and they would repeat to me everything he said about how liberal most Turks are - how most Turks are not religious and are just like Europeans etc etc.. One day I was in the office with him and a girl who worked with us came in. She was tired. We asked why. She said she had been clubbing all night. She left. He turned to me and said something like: 'Disgusting whore. They go out - they do as they please. Whores.' He was deadly serious. Later I discovered everything he was saying was a lie. He was deeply religious. Never went clubbing like he claimed. Never drank alcohol despite lecturing everyone on how drunk he would get. What is worse - he hated Christians and believed something like they had no souls?? He also made friends with another Turk in my office who was an admin manager and they would email each other all the time in Turkish reporting on other members of staff they didn't like and trying to get them fired. When I put this altogether - most the office - especially the leftists were clueless to who he really was. In fact - they defended him constantly! My mate in IT said he worked with around 5 Turks and 4 of them were carbon copies of this guy. The big game they played for dumb westerners always seemed to work.. the reality? Islam and power. Before you go off on another leftist straw man.. Are all Turks like him? Nope. Are most Turks liberal and anti Erdogan? Nope.

The chances of a Greek-Turkish war, let alone any war between any European nations in the next years is extremely unlikely.

Agree, Greece is more than willing to sacrifice its EEZ for Turkish drilling and a few uninhabited islands to avoid war. Turks are not in a position yet to take an inhabited island yet - all this is explained on the turkey thread - have a read so you know where we all stand.

There will be disputes, but we might even be able to improve our relations a bit.

More Turkish soaps needed with innocent actors please!

Keep in mind that the United Nations, NATO and the EU would do anything to punish Turkey if things got tense.

You use Syria and Libya, 2 nations devestated and torn apart by 2 fierce civil wars, as an example of why we might be the next targets.

No I don't. Also both those wars were drawing to a close before Erdogan invaded each. Assad was clearing the last Turkish funded jihadists out of Idlib and Haftar was about to take Tripoli. Both wars were over before Erdogan invaded each.

Our army and navy have shown Erdogan that we aren't vulnerable and that we won't even tolerate the loss of even one of our 2500 islands, no matter if we are talking about a big island like Chios or an unnamed dry inhabited rock.

Few, in that case Turkey won't drill in our EEZ. Also, please be my guest and put up a Greek flag on Imia and see what happens. You will be safe surely..

On another note, one of my relatives recently sat down and traced my mother's family tree all the way back to 1830 and even published a short historical book, which included mentions of my ancestors. Turned out my pro-pro-pro-pro-pro-pappous was born in Vienna, in a time where neither Austria and Germany were sovereign states, but, instead, many different municipalities formed the great Austrian Empire. So, my ancestor along with his brother move to the newly indenpendent Greek nation. So, my ancestor moved to Greece along with his brothers and started one of the first bakery shops in Athens, which was very undeveloped then. He married a Greek woman and pretty much became a Greek after that. My grandfather was born in Kerkyra, but I've never visited. We have a small space of land there.

So just a touch of Germanic.. I thought maybe some asia minor ancestry due to the AEK affiliation. Due to your left wing politics I suspected a bit more Northern Greece - maybe even some Albanian blood. I know an Albanian who has your exact politics and views Turkey exactly like you do. He too would have spoken about the innocence of the actors or something like that.. It is shame you only got involved in this topic. One of the biggest topics on the forum is the Turkey topic. It is worth your time reading it. Tonnes of news on the current situation which you would not get in the mainstream centre left Greek media. Also doubly useful for you to read so we are not repeating the same opinions and quotes on there - in this topic. Saves kbs..

[AEKftw21]

You still are fighting hard against the term soft power. Great influence is a straw man. Soft power is influence through nuance. Turkish authorites don't make these shows so a Greek goes out and proclaims everyone should convert to islam or some other leftist straw man.. What the Turks hope to achieve is Greek leftists repeating what you did. Simply that these are normal people, normal series from a normal country. Normal actors! These series seek to normalise a hostile nation - nothing more. You know, all they really want is to encourage the usual left wing European relativist bullshit..'All countries have good and bad.. we are all human.. a show is just a show.. etc etc Anything away from the reality - Turkey is a majority Sunni muslim nation concerned with expanding its borders at the expense of Greece, Syria and others, expanding its influence through vast foreign mosque building projects in the Balkans and further afield, schools and universities built acorss the globe by Turkish taxpayers and soft power projects like crappy TV shows that must be in the Turkish language and convince low IQed viewers - mainly women.. that Turkey is a 'normal country' and not an expansionist Sunni state with a history of genocide, forced conversions to Islam, pogroms and massacres - a nation that has fired 10,000s of teachers and public servants for not being pro islam enough. A nation that replaced TV executives, newspaper editors and even CEO's with pro Erdogan replacements. The shows on TV are just the tip of the problem. They have done some real work with education..

The government of Recep Tayyip Erdoğan and the Justice and Development Party (AKP) pursue the explicit policy agenda of Islamization of education to "raise a devout generation" against secular resistance,in the process causing lost jobs and school for many non-religious citizens of Turkey.

In 2013, several books that were previously recommend for classroom use were found to be rewritten to include more Islamic themes, without the Ministry of Education's knowledge. Traditional stories of Pinocchio, Heidi, and Tom Sawyer were rewritten to include characters that wished each other a "God-blessed morning" and statements that included "in Allah's name"; in one rewrite, one of the Three Musketeers converted to Islam.





It fits your politics, so nothing to worry about. I actually think you will make friends if you try and sell this particular Turkish series as hard as you have tried to us - to your fellow military cadets when the time comes to your service and honour you family history you have documented. You should also when talking about Turkey to them - state Greece is not perfect either etc etc if anyone gets to harsh on the Turkey barbarity theme. Basically everything you have said here - say there. I find younger minds are far more open to Islamic expansion or expression. I am the majority of them too will look past the Turkish government series being propaganda on any level. I think it will make you very popular with your fellow cadets and even staff sergeant.



He isn't. His rotten ass was booted out in a ND landslide because of the damage he did Geece. More people voted him out of office than voted him in when he won previously! He encouraged many who had not voted previously to vote just remove him. Tsipras actually only got into power because of a dismal turn out.



Greece voted in a referendum to stop paying inflated debts to the EU banks on their sick terms. Tsipras then went against the referendum result stabbing the electorate in the back. He did the same with the North Macedonian name issue. A majority did not want to allow his deal - he ignored them and forced it through to reward a people who helped his communist pappou's side in the Greek civil war.. North Macedonians are allowed to even call their Bulgar dialect 'Macedonian!' However there is a theme here - the left's dislike of majorities.. Tsipras went against majorities in the referendum and concerning North Macedonia because the left naturally dislike majorities or as they associate them - populists..



There is no evidence more people would have died or had lost their jobs had Greece defaulted or negotiated a better deal than Tsipras capituatled to. Even Varoufakis could not believe how low Tsipras bowed to Germany. Greece has suffered immensely since joining the EU.



He simply did the bidding of the German and French banks. Nothing more, nothing less. Many of his party were made up of former PASOK ministers who switched party to gain power. So his party included culprits..



No one said you did. The comparison is that in North Korea - if you have beliefs against the president - you are in major trouble. In Turkey, prison or you lose your job and your family may go without enough food as a result. Either way - this is not a normal country and the comparison with with North Korea is valid. North Korea also lets threatening other countries the way Turkey does - hence why Turkey has threatened Greece with a guarantee of war if Greece claims an EEZ of 12 miles - even on your maternal island of kerkyra which is no where near Turkey! In a normal country like Greece or Italy - if you do not like the government - you are not arrested or fired, or executed. To make any apology of Turkey is repulsive to the extreme. Humans deserve better. They deserve better than China, North Korea or Turkey offers them and Greece deserves better than their propaganda on its TV screens, no matter how mild..



Just as it is your right to watch Turks speaking Turkish on Greek TV as funded by the Turkish Government to push their agenda - and attempt to sell that shit to Greeks on a forum, it is the right of a European to compare how North Korea deals with anti government with how Turkey does - China too is also valid. Prison, losing jobs, death, camps... North Korea is a more extreme version of Turkey but the authoritarian asiatic anti democratic theme is present in both - they just have different methods. The European left feels far more comfortable with Turkey - especially with victimhood of islam to boot. North Korea is a bit too mysterious for the left. China however - they have been apologising for China since Corona kicked off.



Social unrest does not mean a majority of the country is unsatisfied with the leadership. That is a common leftist myth peddled as an apology for dictators they like. The social unrest under Thatcher was far far bigger than what happened in Turkey the last 20 years - but she still won landslide election victories because like Erdogan, the vast majority of the country supported her..

Humans are capable of saying something to you and than doing something different in the ballot box.




They say that to foreigners often. What they say at home to their family is usually different. I have worked directly with Turks in the office - forget chatting to Turkish men online. All of them criticised Erdogan in the office. When alone with their families at a meal - it was the opposite. I was often invited to their houses when they discovered my family had houses in Turkey. The Koran allows not only Turks but all muslims to lie to stupid Westerners about how religious they are. It is called Taqiya. Of course there are a few genuine anti Erdogan Turks, but they are a firm firm minority. Most Turks are deeply proud of Erdogan and Turkey - however they know they can make more naive western friends by playing the contrarian soft leftist.

I used to work with one Turk who was from Northern Cyprus. I said this on another related topic but I suspect you have not read those topics. Anyway, he used to sell tickets to clubs to the women in my office as a side income. He had obviously made a deal with a promoter and they both took a cut. What was interesting was he was so liberal - just like your friends online! Didn't like Erdogan, loved going out - partying. He would often have a crowd of people like you around him and they would repeat to me everything he said about how liberal most Turks are - how most Turks are not religious and are just like Europeans etc etc.. One day I was in the office with him and a girl who worked with us came in. She was tired. We asked why. She said she had been clubbing all night. She left. He turned to me and said something like: 'Disgusting whore. They go out - they do as they please. Whores.' He was deadly serious. Later I discovered everything he was saying was a lie. He was deeply religious. Never went clubbing like he claimed. Never drank alcohol despite lecturing everyone on how drunk he would get. What is worse - he hated Christians and believed something like they had no souls?? He also made friends with another Turk in my office who was an admin manager and they would email each other all the time in Turkish reporting on other members of staff they didn't like and trying to get them fired. When I put this altogether - most the office - especially the leftists were clueless to who he really was. In fact - they defended him constantly! My mate in IT said he worked with around 5 Turks and 4 of them were carbon copies of this guy. The big game they played for dumb westerners always seemed to work.. the reality? Islam and power. Before you go off on another leftist straw man.. Are all Turks like him? Nope. Are most Turks liberal and anti Erdogan? Nope.



Agree, Greece is more than willing to sacrifice its EEZ for Turkish drilling and a few uninhabited islands to avoid war. Turks are not in a position yet to take an inhabited island yet - all this is explained on the turkey thread - have a read so you know where we all stand.



More Turkish soaps needed with innocent actors please!







No I don't. Also both those wars were drawing to a close before Erdogan invaded each. Assad was clearing the last Turkish funded jihadists out of Idlib and Haftar was about to take Tripoli. Both wars were over before Erdogan invaded each.



Few, in that case Turkey won't drill in our EEZ. Also, please be my guest and put up a Greek flag on Imia and see what happens. You will be safe surely..



So just a touch of Germanic.. I thought maybe some asia minor ancestry due to the AEK affiliation. Due to your left wing politics I suspected a bit more Northern Greece - maybe even some Albanian blood. I know an Albanian who has your exact politics and views Turkey exactly like you do. He too would have spoken about the innocence of the actors or something like that.. It is shame you only got involved in this topic. One of the biggest topics on the forum is the Turkey topic. It is worth your time reading it. Tonnes of news on the current situation which you would not get in the mainstream centre left Greek media. Also doubly useful for you to read so we are not repeating the same opinions and quotes on there - in this topic. Saves kbs..

It seems like you think that my entire opinion about the matter has affected by watching 15 episodes of a Turkish series. If your information for a topic doesn't stem from a series and you are actually able to structure your own opinion, then you are fine. If you are uneducated, you can easily associate a nation with a couple of actors. In one of my previous posts, I talked about how stirring up politics is not wise. Yesterday marked 97 years since the Turkish genocide in Pontus, one of the many crimes that took place in the 1920s, caused by Turks. Nearly 300000 innocent people died and it was followed by the Armenian genocide and the population exchange, which were equally horrific. I refuse to associate these events with a random series. All of the facts you have mentioned are somehow related to politics. Maybe we just have a different opinion on this matter.

You are right about Tsipras. As I said, he is very unstable and unreliable, he simply isn't to be trusted. I also don't doubt that he wouldn't have been elected under any other circumstances and going against your own people isn't even considered democracy after all. But, we sadly need to realize something. In 2015, when Tsipras was elected, the nation was at the verge of collapsing. Owing billions of dollars to EU and ΔΝΤ, with unemployment on the rise and everyone actually preparing for Grexit and switching currency, Greece was in a horrible state. 4 years later, after a very controversial spell, we can safely say, that if it isn't all thanks to Tsipras, we greatly improved. What happened in the referendum was inexplicable, but imagine Greece ACTUALLY leaving the EU. How devestating would that be...Would we start using drachmes again ? Joining the EU has been a blessing for Greece, what caused the problems was the governments and people who were in charge between 2002 and 2013. They kept lying and lying and lying and, in all of a sudden, we went bankrupt. When it comes to Macedonia, North Macedonia, Vardar, Skopje, FYROM, however the heck they want to call themselves, I don't think we shall make a big fuss. We just have to make it clear that, ethnically, they have no connection to Greece and Alexander the Great.

Turkey and North Korea are 2 countries where freedom of speech isn't taken for granted. Same applies to China and to some Middle Eastern and African countries. If I had to choose to live in one of these countries though, I would go for Turkey. By the way, I don't think it's logical that the Chinese developed the virus on purpose, but you never know...

When it comes to the coup, I don't think that a country that didn't hesitate to revolt the moment Erdogan was off guard is politically stable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_T...neral_election By the way, even if we accept that the process was normal, Erdogan didn't win by such a big margin afterall.

''I used to work with one Turk who was from Northern Cyprus. I said this on another related topic but I suspect you have not read those topics. Anyway, he used to sell tickets to clubs to the women in my office as a side income. He had obviously made a deal with a promoter and they both took a cut. What was interesting was he was so liberal - just like your friends online! Didn't like Erdogan, loved going out - partying. He would often have a crowd of people like you around him and they would repeat to me everything he said about how liberal most Turks are - how most Turks are not religious and are just like Europeans etc etc.. One day I was in the office with him and a girl who worked with us came in. She was tired. We asked why. She said she had been clubbing all night. She left. He turned to me and said something like: 'Disgusting whore. They go out - they do as they please. Whores.' He was deadly serious. Later I discovered everything he was saying was a lie. He was deeply religious. Never went clubbing like he claimed. Never drank alcohol despite lecturing everyone on how drunk he would get. What is worse - he hated Christians and believed something like they had no souls?? He also made friends with another Turk in my office who was an admin manager and they would email each other all the time in Turkish reporting on other members of staff they didn't like and trying to get them fired. When I put this altogether - most the office - especially the leftists were clueless to who he really was. In fact - they defended him constantly! My mate in IT said he worked with around 5 Turks and 4 of them were carbon copies of this guy. The big game they played for dumb westerners always seemed to work.. the reality? Islam and power. Before you go off on another leftist straw man.. Are all Turks like him? Nope. Are most Turks liberal and anti Erdogan? Nope.''

So, he was lying to all of you since he met you? That man mustn't have been mentally sane lol.

About Libya, Erdogan never directly invaded them. He exploited the fact that the scars from Quadafi are still there and they are in a very bad economical state and he managed to politically take control of the government there. Syria is a different matter, as the war is still going. He invaded them using the excuse that he wants to protect his Southern borders, which is actually valid. But, the reason they are doing it is to weaken the Kurds who have been recently trying to create their own nation in the North of Syria.

On another note, do you really think that if Turkey declared war on us, NATO and the EU would just grab pop corn and do nothing? A war isn't likely and I can prove it to you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...2%80%93present Here is the list of every war and conflict that has happened in the last 17 years. All of the serious ones have taken place in either the Middle East or Northern Africa. Europe's only involvement was to send few troops in some of the wars.

Here is what America said about Imia:
In October 2019, the US Secretary of State Michael Pompeo, on his first official visit to Greece, when asked about a potential Imia scenario involving an escalation of Turkish aggression in the Aegean, stated that the US and Greece share the same values on sovereignty and vowed that the US would "protect […] these basic ideas of sovereignty".


^{PS Since when is AEK leftist-based?}

[Reaper]

It seems like you think that my entire opinion about the matter has affected by watching 15 episodes of a Turkish series. If your information for a topic doesn't stem from a series and you are actually able to structure your own opinion, then you are fine. If you are uneducated, you can easily associate a nation with a couple of actors. In one of my previous posts, I talked about how stirring up politics is not wise. Yesterday marked 97 years since the Turkish genocide in Pontus, one of the many crimes that took place in the 1920s, caused by Turks. Nearly 300000 innocent people died and it was followed by the Armenian genocide and the population exchange, which were equally horrific. I refuse to associate these events with a random series. All of the facts you have mentioned are somehow related to politics. Maybe we just have a different opinion on this matter.

You are right about Tsipras. As I said, he is very unstable and unreliable, he simply isn't to be trusted. I also don't doubt that he wouldn't have been elected under any other circumstances and going against your own people isn't even considered democracy after all. But, we sadly need to realize something. In 2015, when Tsipras was elected, the nation was at the verge of collapsing. Owing billions of dollars to EU and ΔΝΤ, with unemployment on the rise and everyone actually preparing for Grexit and switching currency, Greece was in a horrible state. 4 years later, after a very controversial spell, we can safely say, that if it isn't all thanks to Tsipras, we greatly improved. What happened in the referendum was inexplicable, but imagine Greece ACTUALLY leaving the EU. How devestating would that be...Would we start using drachmes again ? Joining the EU has been a blessing for Greece, what caused the problems was the governments and people who were in charge between 2002 and 2013. They kept lying and lying and lying and, in all of a sudden, we went bankrupt. When it comes to Macedonia, North Macedonia, Vardar, Skopje, FYROM, however the heck they want to call themselves, I don't think we shall make a big fuss. We just have to make it clear that, ethnically, they have no connection to Greece and Alexander the Great.

Turkey and North Korea are 2 countries where freedom of speech isn't taken for granted. Same applies to China and to some Middle Eastern and African countries. If I had to choose to live in one of these countries though, I would go for Turkey. By the way, I don't think it's logical that the Chinese developed the virus on purpose, but you never know...

When it comes to the coup, I don't think that a country that didn't hesitate to revolt the moment Erdogan was off guard is politically stable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_T...neral_election By the way, even if we accept that the process was normal, Erdogan didn't win by such a big margin afterall.

''I used to work with one Turk who was from Northern Cyprus. I said this on another related topic but I suspect you have not read those topics. Anyway, he used to sell tickets to clubs to the women in my office as a side income. He had obviously made a deal with a promoter and they both took a cut. What was interesting was he was so liberal - just like your friends online! Didn't like Erdogan, loved going out - partying. He would often have a crowd of people like you around him and they would repeat to me everything he said about how liberal most Turks are - how most Turks are not religious and are just like Europeans etc etc.. One day I was in the office with him and a girl who worked with us came in. She was tired. We asked why. She said she had been clubbing all night. She left. He turned to me and said something like: 'Disgusting whore. They go out - they do as they please. Whores.' He was deadly serious. Later I discovered everything he was saying was a lie. He was deeply religious. Never went clubbing like he claimed. Never drank alcohol despite lecturing everyone on how drunk he would get. What is worse - he hated Christians and believed something like they had no souls?? He also made friends with another Turk in my office who was an admin manager and they would email each other all the time in Turkish reporting on other members of staff they didn't like and trying to get them fired. When I put this altogether - most the office - especially the leftists were clueless to who he really was. In fact - they defended him constantly! My mate in IT said he worked with around 5 Turks and 4 of them were carbon copies of this guy. The big game they played for dumb westerners always seemed to work.. the reality? Islam and power. Before you go off on another leftist straw man.. Are all Turks like him? Nope. Are most Turks liberal and anti Erdogan? Nope.''

So, he was lying to all of you since he met you? That man mustn't have been mentally sane lol.

About Libya, Erdogan never directly invaded them. He exploited the fact that the scars from Quadafi are still there and they are in a very bad economical state and he managed to politically take control of the government there. Syria is a different matter, as the war is still going. He invaded them using the excuse that he wants to protect his Southern borders, which is actually valid. But, the reason they are doing it is to weaken the Kurds who have been recently trying to create their own nation in the North of Syria.

On another note, do you really think that if Turkey declared war on us, NATO and the EU would just grab pop corn and do nothing? A war isn't likely and I can prove it to you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...2%80%93present Here is the list of every war and conflict that has happened in the last 17 years. All of the serious ones have taken place in either the Middle East or Northern Africa. Europe's only involvement was to send few troops in some of the wars.

Here is what America said about Imia:
In October 2019, the US Secretary of State Michael Pompeo, on his first official visit to Greece, when asked about a potential Imia scenario involving an escalation of Turkish aggression in the Aegean, stated that the US and Greece share the same values on sovereignty and vowed that the US would "protect […] these basic ideas of sovereignty".


^{PS Since when is AEK leftist-based?}

[AGP]

I don't seek to create a pile on, but this is instructive reading:

https://www.ft.com/content/c26e4994-...0-9a4a4e5a5ee4

Anyone who has ever watched those garbage TV shows referenced knows none are political, yet they are being used in a soft power push.

The point I'd seek to make though is, depending on your political persuasion you may or may not be fine with hearing an other country's programme on your television. Whether they are soft power tools seems to be clear. There's a reason for example that BBC World exists and CNN/others are broadcast around the world...

[Reaper]

https://ardin-rixi.gr/archives/220589