Hellas vs Georgia - Qatar WC Quals

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  • #61
    Originally posted by aek66 View Post


    this chat has occurred at least a dozen times since 4 score and 20 years ago.

    i'd keep going with limnios...addition by subtraction with some of the garbage in the CM. let's cram tsimikas and giannoulis on the left? ok, tzolis ends up where he obviously has issues. not a big fan of the 'inverted' winger, but i understand it's very popular these days...and looks as though tzolis is thoroughly uncomfortable playing on his strong foot side. remember, the 'inverted' winger runs into traffic...the less the greek CMs make attacking runs up the gut - the more opponents to defend and make our attack smell like dumpster juice.

    we watch pavlidis (save recent friendly against the big 'H') and giakoumakis and these guys are pathetic with greece - but banging home goals in holland. similar to maxlas' career. every match is the same.

    we are approaching the obliteration of the 'holy grail' of young hellenes world-wide. that a canada, usa or australia would not only defeat a greece, but demolish them statistically, physically and artistically. the tens and tens of millions gifted to EPO from 2004-2014 went to switzerland and the caymans and the heroic young hellenes of the diaspora blame ranieri, skibbe and bad luck. those tens of millions did not go into coaches, training grounds, workshops or academies. today, we see the result.

    i can't tell you how many times i watch papadopoulos - under no pressure - head lazy balls back into contested areas. all he had to fucking do, was take the ball down and it's greek possession. this guy is supposedly world-class?? wtf is he doing???

    jvs just made the same mistake that ranieri did, he made a bench player, at best, the captain. going forward, how can you bench the 'captain'? we just dropped another 2 feet into quicksand and it's up to our chins.
    Very true. This article says the same:

    https://sportdog.gr/blogs/article/64...n-afhnei-pagko

    It was interesting that before Bakasetas and Tzavellas - Stafylidis was his favourite. Another mistake prone baboon..

    So, looking at the lineup I have put what I consider each player's best position in brackets. Then we can see the scale of the cluster fuck..

    ....................................Vlacho (GK)........................................

    Bakakis (RB).....K.Paps (CM)...Tzavellas (LB).....Giannoulis (LB)

    .......................Zeca (CM).............Bouxa (CM)...............

    Tzolis (LW)..................................................Fortouni (RW/AM)

    ...........................Bakasetas (AM)................................

    .......................................Pavlidis (AM/ FW)...



    So what can we surmise from the bargain basement VS?

    1/ He rates what he considers a good personality(?) on and off the pitch - over skill and ability on the pitch. See Bakasetas, Stafylidis, Tzavellas etc.

    2/ He doesn't believe in players playing in the positions they play at club a level. He believes any player should be able to play any position. There is no difference between a CM, LB and CB.. all should be able to cover those respective positions at international level - even if they have never done it at club level.

    3/ He believes players who are not playing for their clubs at all should be able to play at international level out of position. For example - Mavrias - someone who is a natural RW - who has not played football since November - being forced to play his first football in over 5 months at RB in a WC Qual.

    4/ He doesn't believe in club form either. Limnios has stunk for both club and country for a while now. Doesn't bother VS in the slightest.

    5/ He is not a problem solver or diplomat. Fights with Siovas, Manolas, Sokratis, Fetfa etc and these are just the ones the media got hold of. He is not good at man management.

    6/ He does not inspire players. Some coaches are famous for inspiring great performances. Greece could not be bothered to play Georgia.. We saw the same problem last quals.

    7/ He lies with impunity like only a man who knows he can't get fired does. He states he only selects players playing well for their clubs. In fact he selects players out of form and not playing for their clubs.

    8/ He does not work hard, he is lazy. We clearly have a problem at RB. Is he studying games of other RBs such as the talented Giannis Masouras at Gornik Zabrze or the ever consistent RB Kotsiras at Asteras to see if they can fill the void? Doubt it.

    9/ His football game philosophy doesn't result in shots on target. Zero vs Spain, 2 vs Georgia. We have gone other quals with the same problem: 3 shots on target vs Kosovo.. 1 shot on target vs Austria.. He is therefore not an attacking coach. He deviously brought on Siopis vs Georgia in a must win game to protect the 1-1... and his job...

    10/ He does not understand football. After 20 mins - Georgia worked out how to dismantle Zeca and Bouxa. His response? Nothing. Bakasetas did nothing during this game as usual - after the game he said he had 'good moments.' He does not understand how football works - he has no interest in football and most the Greek media are too remedial to notice. VS still probably cant believe he got the job in the first place.

    Anyways, lets hope Zagorakis grows some balls and sacks him before euro 2024 quals. This WC quals failure will be the 4th qualifying campaign failure in a row.. Slovenia, Kosovo, Georgia, Liechtenstein - these are teams VS can't work out how to beat..

    Comment


    • #62
      i agree with most points.

      #2 - total football is a dutch concept...i get it. at the same time, he wouldn't have been wrong assuming players in the greece team and the total greece/greek talent pool - could trap a ball or keep their heads when under zero pressure. ok, unpleasant surprise. players from brazil to fiji love the ball and want the ball - except, it seems - greek players. they hate the ball, the ball is your enemy. kick it away, hard.

      i cut him slack there, but, he's been slow to adjust.

      #s 9 and 10. he moved bouchalakis higher after a dismal first half. boucha's 2nd half wasn't much better. same for zeca - bakasetas was horrible...going from perceived strength (goal against spain/captainship) to zero against georgia. greece is playing at home - neutral site basically. what was the point of a double pivot? i don't understand this. i'm sorry, i believe boucha is terrible..one of the worst CMs i've ever seen at intl level - when he's not embarrassing himself in the CL. bakaseta isn't far off. these guys play 2021 football at a 1972 tempo and boucha is also a physical joke. slow and weak...no touch. some vision. that's it.

      #8 - yes, he could be lazy. but, you offer the money for caps theory. can't be both - one or the other.

      overall, i'm not a fan of jvs and mostly agree with you, but, i'd give him another 4 matches - belgium and switzerland and then kosovo and sweden. the good news is if greece lose the belgium and switzerland friendlies by a collective 0-7...then, he's done. it may happen. the bad news here is that zagorakis would be limited in his selection and will likely be financially obligated to pay someone in a good negotiating position - someone not worth the cost.

      Comment


      • #63
        We should’ve played Fortounis-Mantalos-Siopis as our midfield. That would’ve been better. The funny thing is Bakasetas is rated highly in Turkey (I don’t know how) Bouchalakis is having the best season of his career and Zeca is the best CDM in Denmark but they can’t get it done together. The Georgian midfield destroyed them. Also the leagues they are in aren’t that great. When we saw Siopis and Mantalos play together we saw 2 different players and it worked. That tells you we need pace and skill in the middle. Also you need to players who aren’t the same type of player. Mantalos and Siopis provide both skill and pace. Siopis even set up the 1st goal with a good long ball to Fortounis.

        Also I noticed in the 1st half our players looked lethargic and unmotivated. I don’t know why. I read that confidence was at its highest before the Georgia game. I don’t know what happened. The thing is we will get no where with Bakasetas, Bouchalakis and Zeca as our midfielders. They aren’t good enough footballers. End of story.
        Last edited by Dean97; 04-03-2021, 09:34 AM.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by aek66 View Post
          #8 - yes, he could be lazy. but, you offer the money for caps theory. can't be both - one or the other.
          Could be both. I have no hard evidence the EPO sells caps - just as I have no hard evidence anyone in Italy is corrupt. However, as a gambling man.. I have also met Greek footballers who explained to me face to face many Greek families who have their sons playing in the lower leagues lose their family savings and even go into debt to buy playing minutes for their sons in their respective clubs. It is all about exposure and this culture exists in Greek football - has done for years.

          I mean think about it. Mavrias is being physically removed from Omonia this summer. He has few decent prospects and hasn't managed to play any minutes since November - for anyone. Many players find themselves in this position and usually have to start training alone when their contract is terminated - hoping some club picks them up. What Mavrias needs is to explain to a prospective club that it is all a mistake.. that he is a current international - with minutes for Greece and he just fell out of love with the Omonia staff. Along comes VS - heaven sent - gives him 90 minutes vs Honduras and 50 minutes vs Georgia. What luck eh?

          Now if he did buy his cap for say €30,000 - something I have zero evidence for - what are the chances VS bothers to look for at other RBs if he has already arranged weeks in advance Bakakis and Mavrias are his two golden charges? What type fo research do you do in general when any gaps in the roster are filled in such a way? Whenever a player doesn't buy a cap or is not a favourite - you can feel it. VS looked deep into the camera before these games and stressed Tzolis has much to learn and much to improve on. What a strange comment about a wonderkid. Most managers with a Tzolis simply would play him where he scores/assists every week - wind him and let him go. I remember similar speeches on game-changers like Fetfatzidis and even Ninis previously... the old: They still have many areas of their game they need to improve on and they need to work hard etc etc.... I sensed VS had his hands tied and had little choice but to call up and play Tzolis - the backlash if he didn't would have been substantial. I also notice VS never has any criticism or philosophical reflection on the skill or learning curve of Bakasetas, Staylidis, Mavrias, Bakakis, Limnios etc.. again.. how curious as most these guys are absolute disasters.

          I think the EPO is still corrupt (taking into account the previous successful prosecutions against members of the EPO for corruption) and after years of practice - the corruption is fairly smooth. They will not bite off more than they can chew and sell 9 caps to unknowns. They will only sell a few caps not to draw attention - like every corrupt person - 90% of the game is not giving yourself away. I doubt VS is in on it. He just probably gets told it is important Mavrias stays in the fold or some such bullshit.. I genuinely believe - players like Fortounis/ Tzolis/ Giakoumakis/ Giannoulis etc are called up on their merits. Mavrias, Limnios and Kapino? It is a shame Greece does not have its own Jeffrey Wigand types - someone to blow the whole thing down. Amanatidis came close - he had that look in his eyes which said - I don't fear the EPO - but alas, the Greek media is not famed for investigative journalism or lifting the lid.. and as that philhellene Byron once said about the Greeks - I like the Greeks, who are plausible rascals – with all the Turkish vices, without their courage. However, some are brave..

          Originally posted by aek66 View Post

          overall, i'm not a fan of jvs and mostly agree with you, but, i'd give him another 4 matches
          I am in a lot better position. I wrote off our chances for the WC from the moment I saw he would build the team around 'captain' Bakasetas - the player who failed to crack Lichtenstein, Slovenia and Kosovo.. The minute Zagorakis chose not to fire VS - I knew we had just sacrificed another 2 years. Football is far too competitive now to expect a victory when playing with 10 men vs 11 men. You build a Brazil/ Spain/ England around Bakasetas - there is a very good chance they too would not qualify. Smaller teams may not have the best players but each one has to pull their weight. If they have an extra man - they will make it count. The 1-1 this week was simply the confirmation. I am now looking to 2024 and fearing VS somehow keeps his job as their are already elements of the insidious Greek media calling for him to lead us into Euro2024 quals after the Georgia game.

          Comment


          • #65
            Why would he fire him when he just got elected? They barely know each other. The campaign just started and we had a good result, a friendly win and another result which stunk. That in itself is not grounds to be fired.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Brklyngrk View Post
              Why would he fire him when he just got elected? They barely know each other.
              Zagorakis should not be looking to date him. We can see what VS has produced on the pitch since the summer 2019.

              The campaign just started
              The campaign is already over.

              That in itself is not grounds to be fired.
              If you hired an electrician to change your light bulb and he arrived in a diving costume wielding a monkey wrench (Bakasetas captain), what would you say to someone who said.. “don't fire him yet, you don't know him well.” Now if this guy has fucked up your house since 2019 (Stafylidis CB, Bakasetas..can't beat Lichtenstein or Slovenia etc)... and you still seek to make excuses for him.. add to that VS lies 24/7 as I proved in my long list of facts... add to that he knows nothing about football.. why would you want to damage Greece like that by giving him a 3rd or 4th chance? Surely Greece deserves not to have a broken lunatic in charge, surely.

              Comment


              • #67
                The question is though, say we fire him now, who do we bring in? We’ve got another 2 months until our friendly games. If your going to do it, Zagorakis should do it now. I don’t know if the federation has the funds to find a new coach. Anyone you bring in at this point, is probably going to cost the same as JVS. We need someone better, someone with a bit of experience and someone who has won some trophies.

                If we want to save ourselves and see Greece next year at a World Cup then we shouldn’t waste time. I want to see us at a World Cup. It’s only next year. I don’t want to see commercials or the build to this tournament without Greece again. It’s going to burn just like the other times. All because we hire coaches not suitable for the role. Holding on for a draw against Georgia is unacceptable. We should be beating them. JVS shot himself in the foot by putting out a starting 11 like that. He made himself panic and didn’t trust the players he had. Why would Bakasetas be a game changer?

                Politics have been around for a while. We’ve still made tournaments despite all that. The only difference is we’ve hired the wrong coaches and most of them have chosen and trusted the wrong players.
                Last edited by Dean97; 04-03-2021, 10:31 PM.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Well the contract could be the same money VS is on with a massive bonus if he gets us to the WC. Nice earner for a coach up until next summer with a clear goal and a good incentive for a Martin O'Neil or Valverde - both of whom are unattached. Also as long as the coach selected has a IQ over 80 - we won't see Bakasetas again and our chances double the minute he is dropped. Some coaches are brought in for a short term target - Boloni to get PAO into Europe, others for a long term rebuild - Martins at Oly. Brining in a new coach is doable however my guess is Zagorakis will opt for pure failure with VS and Captain Baskethead instead.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Honestly congratz to the players for the two points. Yeh Spain waste a lot of time passing the ball backwards and sideways; rinse and repeat but still, it’s not every day, you get a point away to them. Georgia is actually not a bad side under Sagnol.

                    That left winger that gave bakakis and mavrias all sorts of problems is a delight to watch. The Greek media raves about Tzolis but Tzolis doesn’t have 1/10 of that dude’s dribbling ability. Tzolis though will carve out a nice career for himself because of his finishing and positional IQ. If he is going to play on the flank, he needs to track back and help out but I don’t think I’ve ever seen him do this.

                    JVS could’ve used masouras to do exactly this since we were struggling on the right; with this move, we may even have won the game but truth be told, you can’t expect full points when your only goal comes from an own goal. It’s not like we should have expectations of our guys to create and score goals. To name a few, bakakis, k pap, zeca and bakasetas have no business in games where you need to create chances.

                    The criticism of JVS is justified. You can’t be playing your best player out of his natural position to accommodate one of your favourite’s in bakasetas. I actually cringed when I saw him with the captain’s armband; this in itself says a lot about the state of the national team. I think we did something similar with mantalos in the past, where again fortounis was pushed out wide. Big clubs like AEK gotta stop buying these sapakia because their agents strike deals to get them games for the ethniki.

                    I was thinking, if you could pick foreign guys like el arabi for the ethniki, how many of our guys would make the squad? Would olympiakos be having as much success without their foreigners?

                    Looking forward, I think we can pick up points against Kosovo and Sweden. Not sure if JVS will still be the head coach by the then. I think he’ll be shattered to lose this current gig. Dude is basically getting paid for holidaying in Glyfada.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Valverde would be good. But I don’t think he would want to join. He would know a bit about Greek football. Regarding JVS, he needs to rewatch these past few games and understand why we can’t create or score. He would realise that Bakasetas is the issue. But because he likes him so much he would make excuses up for him to his assistants. I’ve been seeing on other forums and podcasts on YouTube and when people make there squads for Greece there are obvious similarities in the line ups. NO ONE INCLUDES BAKASETAS. It’s so obvious he’s the problem on the field. No Greek fan wants him. Skibbe fascination with Tziolis is the same with JVS and Bakasetas.

                      I wonder how this meeting between JVS and Zagorakis will go. I can’t see him firing him for some reason. Apparently there will be 4 board members in the meeting aswell. I read an article once that said that Zagorakis top priority is to make the national team great again. Also apparently he doesn’t want to get too involved in the coaches decisions.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Val View Post
                        Honestly congratz to the players for the two points. Yeh Spain waste a lot of time passing the ball backwards and sideways; rinse and repeat but still, it’s not every day, you get a point away to them. Georgia is actually not a bad side under Sagnol.

                        That left winger that gave bakakis and mavrias all sorts of problems is a delight to watch. The Greek media raves about Tzolis but Tzolis doesn’t have 1/10 of that dude’s dribbling ability. Tzolis though will carve out a nice career for himself because of his finishing and positional IQ. If he is going to play on the flank, he needs to track back and help out but I don’t think I’ve ever seen him do this.

                        JVS could’ve used masouras to do exactly this since we were struggling on the right; with this move, we may even have won the game but truth be told, you can’t expect full points when your only goal comes from an own goal. It’s not like we should have expectations of our guys to create and score goals. To name a few, bakakis, k pap, zeca and bakasetas have no business in games where you need to create chances.

                        The criticism of JVS is justified. You can’t be playing your best player out of his natural position to accommodate one of your favourite’s in bakasetas. I actually cringed when I saw him with the captain’s armband; this in itself says a lot about the state of the national team. I think we did something similar with mantalos in the past, where again fortounis was pushed out wide. Big clubs like AEK gotta stop buying these sapakia because their agents strike deals to get them games for the ethniki.

                        I was thinking, if you could pick foreign guys like el arabi for the ethniki, how many of our guys would make the squad? Would olympiakos be having as much success without their foreigners?

                        Looking forward, I think we can pick up points against Kosovo and Sweden. Not sure if JVS will still be the head coach by the then. I think he’ll be shattered to lose this current gig. Dude is basically getting paid for holidaying in Glyfada.
                        Having Tzolis on the field is a bonus. He’s our biggest goal threat and just like you said he has great positional sense and is a great finisher. His dribbling isn’t like Fetfatzidis but he can score goals. He was just very unlucky this go around.

                        I don’t think we have problems with our strikers. I believe it’s the service they are getting. The midfield is a big problem area. They can’t create. I remember Giannoulis was trying to create from LB and worked well with Fortounis a couple times. Our DMs are too static. We need someone more smoother with the ball there. Mantalos did well in that deep position. That’s what we need. Someone who can twist and turn with the ball with ease and someone who is more dynamic.

                        Giakoumakis and Fountas score loads of goals for there clubs but for the national team it’s not the same. Pavlidis is a great player to have. Looked good in that support striker role where got the 2 goals. Tzolis always in the right place at the right time. He can create aswell. We just need to get 3 better midfielders with a better RB and we should be good to go.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Lol guys m, JVS isn’t getting fired tomorrow

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