John van 't Schip - should we keep him after this debacle?

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  • seems to rotate the GKs....barkas looked bad on rangers' first goal on saturday. maybe the dutchman is a good evaluator of goalkeeping talent?

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    • See, the problem I have with Van’t Schip is that he has the right mentality and approach in playing such as playing attacking football, keeping possession and winning the ball back as soon as possible. But he’s doing it with the wrong players everywhere. This the reason our end product is continuously suffering in my opinion. Bakasetas and Kourbelis provide no creativity and vision. They also make the wrong decisions most of the time.

      Without Fortounis we will suffer even more. Limnios is great but his end product also needs work. I think Limnios might have to be used as a super sub. Like our build up play is fine but we struggle in the final third all the time. Also we will not get anywhere with our current CBs. Manolas and when healthy Mavropanos should be the CBs.

      To conclude, Van’t Schip has the right approach but his call ups and starting 11s sabotages the team for success and what he’s trying to do.

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      • Well it seems VS is safe for the foreseeable future so we just got to hope Bakasetas suddenly learns how to play one touch football in front of the box..

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        • Also we are going to have to accept that he won’t call Fetfatzidis back up again. I actually had high hopes when he spoke in his first interview. I thought we were going to see actual players that deserve to play. But we are seeing the same old with a different coach. Poor player selections is what sabotaged us in getting 1st place in my opinion.

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          • VS has tied his time as Greek coach to Bakasetas, Tzavellas, Staf, Zeca, Kourbelis, Limnios etc. With each failure he will just say the boys tried hard like Skibbe did. In fact it is similar to the way Skibbe tied his future to Tziolis - who was also hugely limited.

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            • For now we need to keep him, we have seen there is no perfect coach and with what he has done with the team it would be stupid to change AGAIN

              We have a striker issue which is really hurting us, as such we are a goal or two away from some good things but this does need fixing, my worry is if JVS can fix this as his proving to be his own worst enemy

              http://hellasfooty.blogspot.com/2020...-reaction.html

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              • Originally posted by Amorgos View Post
                For now we need to keep him,
                I would change him in a heart beat to get Fortounis back as the 10, Bakasetas out the team and genuine CBs as CBs instead of LBs as CBs..

                All Skibbe will do is double down on Staf/ Bakasetas/ Limnios / Mavris / Kourbelis and Tzavellas - a group that could not dispatch Kosovo. Why build on them? You know as well as I do Bakasetas - our captain.. is not going to magically get quicker on the ball.

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                • Even if we do get rid of him the EPO aren’t capable of finding a better replacement anyway. I don’t think they can find a Michel or Schuster type coach. So we are stuck with him for now. If only he made better selections than I can be fully on board. Like Fortounis at 10, play actual wingers and CBs and put 2 CMs that can play balls forward and players who are creative. Also find a striker than can put them away consistently.

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                  • Come on guys, in what sport to you change a coach so quickly? The team was a fucking mess after 2014 we went through a shit load of coaches and not one of them has the results or the team playing as good as JVS is right now.. if you change this coach right now while the team is building chemistry you can kiss any chance of making the World Cup even if our chances don’t seem so great right now.. JVS at least is changing the culture of the team which has been mentally defeated after a miserable 6 years. He’s not afraid to bring young players and try them out and rebuild this team which is so desperately needed. Even the English soccer announcers were giving credit to JVS for the quick turnaround the team had taken under his rains. I do not agree with some of his selections either and I do get frustrated seeing Bakasetas being a captain and an automatic starter, or Manolas not being on the team, or even playing Fortounis out of position and Not playing in the middle and using him on the wing rather than a natural winger amongst other things. Lets look back at every coach post 2014 and we’ve all complained about selection of players.

                    With Raneri it was he changed the style of play and we can’t defend anymore.

                    Skibbe - Bakasetas was playing as was Tziolis amongst some other dinosaurs and he would be reluctant to call and play young guys. Let’s not forget the line up he choose in the first leg of the Croatia game..

                    My point is we will never agree with every coaches players selection and that’s our right as fans but we have complained about every single coach we had In the past , so now that we have a coach that just took us through our campaign without a loss and our numbers of possession, shots on target, corners taken ranked amongst the top 10 teams in the entire Nations league tournament we want to change the coach?? First off JVS like him or hate him deserves a chance to take this team to the World Cup. A rebuild takes some time and I’m hoping we will see a better effort as the team gets even more comfortable under his style of play.. I’m hoping this Nations league campaign got the team to gel together and I hoe JVS also learns from this and makes the right calls as he said before this campaign he’s going to use this tournament to get the team ready for Qatar.

                    I’m not making excuses for the guy but come on guys we’ve bitched about every coaches line up since 2014 what makes you think under the EPOs budget for hiring a coach the chances are we get someone who is going to play the line up we all want???

                    for the most part I think JVS has done a decent job and and he has the team playing well with a few tweaks and some other call ups I think we can improve even more.. Let’s see what he’s learned now from the team after JVS has had a full campaign with the team and see what changes he brings to World Cup campaign.. Also with a better striker we win this group hands down. Let’s not forget how many shots on target we use to get under the previous coaches compared to what we do now. It’s not the coaches fault we don’t have a player that can consistently put the ball in the net. I’m hoping one of these young guys will steps up and grow into that role..

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                    • Jsoul excellent post mate, I agree whole heartedly with everything you said and pointed out.

                      We can’t keep going from coach to coach me we bitch and moan about each of them.

                      JVS 100% deserves to stay, our players caliber is prob not a good as we thing but you can see the right mix is tricky.

                      Hopefully the mistakes of this campaign are fixed for WC Qualification which will be harder than Nations League

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                      • Originally posted by Jsoul View Post
                        Come on guys, in what sport to you change a coach so quickly? The team was a fucking mess after 2014 we went through a shit load of coaches and not one of them has the results or the team playing as good as JVS is right now.. if you change this coach right now while the team is building chemistry you can kiss any chance of making the World Cup even if our chances don’t seem so great right now.. JVS at least is changing the culture of the team which has been mentally defeated after a miserable 6 years. He’s not afraid to bring young players and try them out and rebuild this team which is so desperately needed. Even the English soccer announcers were giving credit to JVS for the quick turnaround the team had taken under his rains. I do not agree with some of his selections either and I do get frustrated seeing Bakasetas being a captain and an automatic starter, or Manolas not being on the team, or even playing Fortounis out of position and Not playing in the middle and using him on the wing rather than a natural winger amongst other things. Lets look back at every coach post 2014 and we’ve all complained about selection of players.

                        With Raneri it was he changed the style of play and we can’t defend anymore.

                        Skibbe - Bakasetas was playing as was Tziolis amongst some other dinosaurs and he would be reluctant to call and play young guys. Let’s not forget the line up he choose in the first leg of the Croatia game..

                        My point is we will never agree with every coaches players selection and that’s our right as fans but we have complained about every single coach we had In the past , so now that we have a coach that just took us through our campaign without a loss and our numbers of possession, shots on target, corners taken ranked amongst the top 10 teams in the entire Nations league tournament we want to change the coach?? First off JVS like him or hate him deserves a chance to take this team to the World Cup. A rebuild takes some time and I’m hoping we will see a better effort as the team gets even more comfortable under his style of play.. I’m hoping this Nations league campaign got the team to gel together and I hoe JVS also learns from this and makes the right calls as he said before this campaign he’s going to use this tournament to get the team ready for Qatar.

                        I’m not making excuses for the guy but come on guys we’ve bitched about every coaches line up since 2014 what makes you think under the EPOs budget for hiring a coach the chances are we get someone who is going to play the line up we all want???

                        for the most part I think JVS has done a decent job and and he has the team playing well with a few tweaks and some other call ups I think we can improve even more.. Let’s see what he’s learned now from the team after JVS has had a full campaign with the team and see what changes he brings to World Cup campaign.. Also with a better striker we win this group hands down. Let’s not forget how many shots on target we use to get under the previous coaches compared to what we do now. It’s not the coaches fault we don’t have a player that can consistently put the ball in the net. I’m hoping one of these young guys will steps up and grow into that role..
                        i agree with some, disagree with other stuff.

                        ranieri didn't change the way the team played. ranieri dealt with players having a hangover from making the final 16/going out on PKs - i guess they thought they won the WC. a holebas clumsy foul against romania and that was it - out after 4 matches?? half the side had no club team/didn't report for pre-season training.

                        ranieri tried to up the tempo of greece..something that has been talked about here for years. now, JVS is doing that and he's re-invented football? i also wouldn't get too excited - yes, we have some young talent on the greece side, but we've played up-tempo against 'c' nation sides. move up to 'b' and 'a' and your CMs better be quick on and off the ball. our CMs?? hmmm.

                        i agreed with reaper than limnios wasn't at top form in recent matches, but i wouldn't replace him in the 11. let limnios work out the kinks - decision-making and more confidence for finishing. his skill out wide does create space in the middle - really no one to take advantage. bakasetas plays closest to him and zeca & kourbelis/bouxa play too deep. i can see limnios dragging defenders to him, helping fortounis make runs from the left touchline to the right touchline - how many times a match and how much stamina does he have for that? fortounis is by no means any kind of physical specimen.

                        all in all, JVS needs to sort out the CM and bring back the intl. quality defenders. personally, i'd also add donis to the attacking mix, but we aren't in camp/training/matches day-to-day and don't know if donis is a problem in the room and a problem for the manager.

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                        • I agree Ranieri was not given enough time but I want to make another point.

                          1/ The quality of managers coming in has not been high enough to utter the phrase “we cannot change coach again..” Look who Greece has employed.. Markarian, Skibbe, Tsanas, Anastasiadis.. JVS.... That is therefore like saying: “what is the point of buying a new car? - They all break down anyway.. look how many we have had.. a 1985 Skoda, a 1.1 litre Fiat, a Citroën C3, a Dacia 1300... a Lada Niva...” The EPO has recycled a lot of shit managers. If we had had a Schuster, then Michel, then a Bielsa, then a Setien, then a Roberto Martinez and we were still stuck with teams built around rejects like Tzavellas and Bakasetas - then fine - I would not argue a change.

                          2/ If any team in the world with aspirations could reach a higher ceiling with Bakasetas as captain I would like to see it. In football in 2020 you can't afford to have even one passenger in the team. VS is tied to Bakasetas. This is the ceiling.

                          3/ Greece cannot settle. Greece cannot say - “we must keep this guy because although we can't top a group with Kosovo, Slovenia, Moldova which JVS had ages to prepare for, although we have LBs as CBs and sometimes as CMs even, although VS is married to players who are not international quality like Staf/ Tzavellas/ Bakasetas, although he has been unable to make peace with our most talented players like Manolas and Fetfa, although we had games under VS where we only had 1 shot on target all 90 etc etc ad infinitum... we must keep him because at least the team is attacking unlike under Anastasiadis..” VS had his chance imo. Blew it. I would get in a Michel.

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                          • Great post Reaper. I can’t accept to have Bakasetas as our starting number 10. I just can’t. Especially when you have a game changer like Fortounis. Also when you have Mantalos there too. I’d take an out of form Fortounis or Fetfatzidis over Bakasetas any day.

                            The other thing I can’t accept is having Bakakis and Mavrias battling over the RB spot. Giannis Masouras has been playing week in and week out in Poland. He has talent. Hasn’t even been included.

                            These 2 positions need changing as soon as possible. It’s up to Van’t Schip. Also recently in an interview Van’t Schip has said that Fortounis has shown what he has wanted from him and is very happy with his performances. Looks like Mantalos will be on the bench from now on.

                            We still have a problem at CM. Samaris, Tachtsidis, Kourbelis and Bouchalakis have all been given enough chances over these 6 years. Zeca should stay. We need him to cover a lot of ground like he does. He’s good at interceptions and tackling. These are the only things he offers.

                            Hopefully with Galanopoulos coming back our midfield will look better.

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                            • Originally posted by Reaper View Post
                              1/ The quality of managers coming in has not been high enough to utter the phrase “we cannot change coach again..” Look who Greece has employed.. Markarian, Skibbe, Tsanas, Anastasiadis.. JVS.... That is therefore like saying: “what is the point of buying a new car? - They all break down anyway.. look how many we have had.. a 1985 Skoda, a 1.1 litre Fiat, a Citroën C3, a Dacia 1300... a Lada Niva...” The EPO has recycled a lot of shit managers. If we had had a Schuster, then Michel, then a Bielsa, then a Setien, then a Roberto Martinez and we were still stuck with teams built around rejects like Tzavellas and Bakasetas - then fine - I would not argue a change.

                              2/ If any team in the world with aspirations could reach a higher ceiling with Bakasetas as captain I would like to see it. In football in 2020 you can't afford to have even one passenger in the team. VS is tied to Bakasetas. This is the ceiling.

                              3/ Greece cannot settle. Greece cannot say - “we must keep this guy because although we can't top a group with Kosovo, Slovenia, Moldova which JVS had ages to prepare for, although we have LBs as CBs and sometimes as CMs even, although VS is married to players who are not international quality like Staf/ Tzavellas/ Bakasetas, although he has been unable to make peace with our most talented players like Manolas and Fetfa, although we had games under VS where we only had 1 shot on target all 90 etc etc ad infinitum... we must keep him because at least the team is attacking unlike under Anastasiadis..” VS had his chance imo. Blew it. I would get in a Michel.
                              We cant utter the phrase "we cannot change coach again" because of the quality of manager... I get what your saying but over all there is no long terms fix to this and its a very short sighted comment, so what are we gona do if we hire another guy that used Bakasetas? Sack him, next! and continue the cycle? That's ridiculous

                              Look what happened with Ranieri the "high caliber" coach, granted he was not given long enough to make his mark but JVS has done something he couldn't, we are finally playing good football and taking it to teams, we have not done this in years and you cannot take that away from him.

                              Whilst I totally agree about Bakasetas, its nothing different from the past 10 managers who have had a bizzar infatuation with a player we all want desperately out of the team and certain players in the team.

                              Most of what your wishing for his big name coaches and with the payouts to coaches by EPO based on what you would be doing also, we can not afford it.

                              JVS will see is through the 2022 WC Qualifiers weather we like it or not and I think the stupidest thing we could do is sack him with a pay out after the turn around we saw. It's now in JVS's hands weather he fixes his mistakes and if he doesn't and we go nowhere near qualification (lets see firstly what group we get) he will prob be gone but you all need some long terms view, Rome was not built in a day and swapping and changing coaches all the time is NOT the answer.

                              Another thing to remember guys, even if we fix Baka, and the RB spot, is the striker position where we are pretty thin in and until someone starts smacking goals in you will find us in a similar position where we cant get the vital goal to win the key matches.


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                              • I really don’t why the media don’t ask proper questions. In the post match interview Van’t Schip was asked very dumb questions like...

                                1. Do you think the team couldn’t win because of how young the team is?

                                2. Are you looking forward to the World Cup qualifiers?

                                I mean seriously what is this shit... ask some real questions. Like:

                                1. Why did you put Fortounis on the left instead of putting him in the middle.

                                2. Why is Bakasetas starting every game?

                                3. Why did you wait so long to bring on Tzolis and Masouras?

                                4. Why did you call up and start Mavrias who hasn’t played for like 2 months and ignored someone like Giannis Masouras who has been playing week in and week out?

                                It’s either the media have a low football IQ or they’ve been paid to ask these silly questions.

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