The John van't Schip replacement thread

[Don Giovanni]

The only problem with Fortounis is playing him against a top side like we saw with Italy. Against a quality opponent, we might need all the men we can get behind the ball and having him on the field might mean defending with one man less. The same rationale was applied to Tsartas under Rehhagel. He has the quality to make a team like Italy pay, but teams like Italy have too much quality for us to go toe-to-toe.

Against the Bosnias, Liechtensteins, and Armenias he's a big difference maker, which is why he has 3 goals so far in qualifying and has one assist (he's had a hand in 4 of the 7 goals we have scored so far). Without him, we would have lost 0-3 to Armenia, we would have lost to Bosnia and we may not have beaten Liechtenstein the first game either (his opening goal allowed us to play a little more freely and breathe more easily).

Just look at the quality of his goals against Liechtenstein and Armenia. He dribbled past a host of Armenian defenders, half their team almost. Against Liechtenstein, he bypassed the whole team by getting in behind their defense and encouraging that long ball from Kourbelis. Fortounis knows how to take the opposition's entire team out of the equation. He can change the balance of the game, like he did against Bosnia.

The alternatives have been disastrous. Kolovos was made to play as a dekari against Finland and the ball either got stuck on his feet or he misplayed passes. Any momentum we built in the attack came to a dead end once he came into possession of the ball. Then Vrousaj couldn't turn his markers in the Liechtenstein game. Fortounis in only his second appearance for Greece nearly won the game against Poland at Euro 2012. He was 19. Contrast that to Vrousaj and how poor he was against Liechtenstein.

I honestly believe the moment Fortounis was out injured was the moment we lost out on qualification. Imagine Finland without Pukki or Bosnia without Pjanic or Armenia without Mkhitaryan, that's how big a loss he was for us. I would not suggest he's overrated. And we have to remember, he's only 26 and he's been getting better and better, year after year.

As for Manolas and Sokratis, they need protection from the middle and we need to be organized. If Kourbelis is giving away penalties or Samaris is giving away the ball leaving our central defense to defend 60 yards of space, then what can we expect Manolas and Sokratis to do? Under Anastasiadis they were stretched all over the place and were low on morale. Van Dijk has De Jong and Fabinho to count on, whereas Sokratis has Samaris and Guendouzi. Time and again these two cop blame, but they're not the problem. And the fact remains, compared to Portugal, Argentina, and Germany, who among their center-backs would any one here rather have instead? As a pair, I can't even name a country with a stronger pairing.

There were positives in the last two games. The fact is Finland and Liechtenstein scored on the only presentable chances they had. We only made two serious mistakes in defense. We can't play football expecting not to make mistakes or with the expectation that we won't ever concede, but at least our approach now suggests we're making life more difficult for our opponents and we look organized once again. This is the most organized I've seen us play since the Santos era. If Van't Schip can get us to play with more confidence and quality in possession, we'll achieve results.

And he has to convince Manolas and Sokratis of their importance to the team. We need them. With them in the back our defense we are among the best in that department. It's easy to overlook that because the results have been so poor, but look at any other country, for example Portugal, England, Germany, or Argentina, and it's not an exaggeration. Their experience and quality will make an enormous difference for us if we get our rhythm and structure back. To stand any chance of qualifying for 2022 World Cup, we'll need them.

[Don Giovanni]

Comments from Van't Schip after the win over Bosnia:

Αναλυτικά όσα τόνισε ο Ολλανδός προπονητής στην κάμερα του OPEN:

«Θέλουμε να παίζουμε ποδόσφαιρο, να ξεκινάει η επίθεση από την άμυνα και αυτό πιστεύω μπορούμε να το κάνουμε. Έχουμε τους παίκτες να το κάνουμε».

Για τον Σταφυλίδη: «Πιστεύω ο Σταφυλίδης μπορεί να παίξει ως κεντρικός αμυντικός. Ξέραμε ότι μπορεί να παίξει, είναι ένας παίκτης με μεγάλη ταχύτητα και ενέργεια».

Για το επιθετικό ποδόσφαιρο που έπαιξε η Εθνική: «Θέλουμε να παίζουμε αυτό το ποδόσφαιρο. Δεν λέω ότι παίζαμε λάθος πριν αλλά θέλουμε να παίζουμε επιθετικά πλέον. Το πλάνο για το Κατάρ δεν έχει αλλάξει, κοιτάμε ακόμα παίκτες και να παίζουμε όσο καλύτερα μπορούμε».

Για το τι είπε στους παίκτες: «Είμαι πάρα πολύ ευχαριστημένος από τον τρόπο που παίξαμε τα 90'. Αυτή ήταν μόνο η αρχή, πρέπει να συνεχίσουμε έτσι και να είμαστε σε εγρήγορση».

He doesn't give too much away about his future plans and selections other than to suggest he believes we have the players to attack (play passes) out of the back, but it does worry me he thinks Stafylidis can play as a center-back. The truth is Stafylidis did well, but only when considering the circumstances. The fact remains he's not a center-back. He's not strong enough in the air (he can barely climb up), he's not strong enough to bully opponents, and frankly his passes out of the back weren't very good. A lot of his passes didn't hit their intended target. Even in terms of keeping the ball and finding space to play it, I very much doubt he'll be as composed on the ball against a team that presses well. Bosnia didn't look very good and it was more a consequence of how poor they were than how good we were.

I will grant that what Van't Schip accomplished today is very promising. I saw a lot of movement and players trading positions at the back. I saw something that almost resembled total football. There was a real flow and sense of organization. To take a team like Greece that struggles on the ball and to do this is a real accomplishment. If he plans to carry on this way, I'm happy to have him lead the way, but he can't turn his back on Sokratis and Manolas. Even Mitroglou and Samaris should be available from the bench.

[Don Giovanni]

I do have other concerns.

At times it seems Van't Schip is fudging around with the truth. When explaining Vlachodimos' exclusion from the eleven, he may have lied. I find it strange and almost inexplicable that Paschalakis is playing. When Barkas was fit, Paschalakis wasn't even in the squad. Van't Schip says he impressed in training, which is the only possible explanation, but Paschalakis wasn't exactly convincing in the matches he played. There was nothing in his performances to suggest he deserved to start. Something doesn't add up with this picture. If it's Van't Schip's intention to play out of the back, then who better than Vlachodimos, the most modern of the Greek keepers?

Also, Stafylidis has only played once as a center-back in his career and this is going back to his days at PAOK, something he made mention in a Q&A after the game. This was a bizarre decision, but then again Rehhagle had played Seitaridis as a center-back, Tzavellas did so under Skibbe (although Tzavellas did so too for PAOK), and Valerianos under Anastasiadis. There is precedent. I would consider the results of his performance today mixed. It could be said he was chiefly at fault for letting the Bosnian goalscorer through.

Then there is a question as to why Fetfatzidis was not given much of an opportunity. Against Italy, we're told he was left out because he was late for a meeting. As a consequence, Fetfatzidis was made an example of for his indiscipline. Fine. Van't Schip did play Fetfatzidis against Bosnia, but he threw him in so late a stage in the game that it beggared belief he could have much of an impact. Van't Schip waited way too late to play him. I got the impression Fetfatzidis only played because Van't Schip could tell Limnios was crossing a line in the manner he was speaking with his teammates, a little too forcefully, something that could perhaps have damaged the camaraderie he was hoping to instill the team.

Whatever the case may be, it's very clear to me PAOK and AEK retain a strong influence over the EPO and that it's possible Van't Schip is not above that influence. I also think Van't Schip has an agenda like that of Anastasiadis' to phase out certain established players, Sokratis being chief among them.

[ThrylosG7]

Don Giovanni I too think that all players should be considered and given a chance as long as they dont think they are above the team or think they know better than the coach - that mentality will never get us anywhere no matter who is in charge even Anastasiadis - like Georgatos for example who was an outstanding player and could have been colossal for us under Otto if he had a better attitude. Team unity and discipline are the foundation of building a successful squad , just look at far more talented teams in the past who didnt have that and failed. Spain , England the main offenders. Vlachodimos I agree is by far our best Keeper and should have the No1 spot locked down unless he puts a string of bad performances together. Maybe some players like Sokratis and Manolas need to see a performance like this to think to themselves that JVS might actually know a thing or 2 and to also think that they are not as untouchable as they may think - which is something that can happen to top players in the NT set up. Im not buying into any conspiracy theories about AE, PAOK and the EPO just yet. He would have known very little about many of the players when he first came in.. he would have to have watched many previous games - of course there would be people who gave him a heads up on players and whats been going on - however think that he has been given free reign to select who he wants with no pressure.

[Don Giovanni]

When Rehhagel dropped Georgatos, he brought Kasapis in. Kasapis was a very good player. He didn't make a move to Monaco only because of a lengthy suspension in the league that resulted in him and Nikolaidis boycotting the national team. Rehhagel convinced them to end that boycott. I didn't mind Georgatos being dropped for a game, but what Rehhagel did was wrong. Georgatos never played for Greece again. And then we repeated the madness with Holebas, except this time without anyone of Kasapis' quality to replace him.

I have suspicions AEK and PAOK, especially, lean on the team.

For Paschalakis to start, to be given chances with the NT so PAOK may offload him in the summer or this January, is a possibility. I don't think it made a world's difference to start Paschalakis or Vlachodimos in these two past matches, but it's odd that Paschalakis was allowed to start given that he wasn't part of the original squad. Bare in mind that Paschalakis is no longer considered a player in PAOK's own first team plans.

That said, it's possible Van't Schip wanted to send a message, because Pachalakis might have worked harder in training and it's something he perhaps wants to see from all his players. He may have done so as a matter of instilling better discipline and desire in the squad.

We don't know, but when I heard Van't Schip suggest Vlachodimos had a strain or small injury, I found it odd when even Benfica says they know of no such thing and intend to start him on Friday.

[Dean97]

We don’t really know what goes on behind the scenes. All we know is what we see on the pitch. We can have suspicions about things like for example with Paschalakis starting but we don’t know the main reason. He could’ve trained really well. But to your point Don I think JVS is trying to instill discipline and work rate. It’s very odd for sure that Paschalakis started over Vlachodimos. Maybe this was EPO telling the coach to start him. We don’t know that for sure though. All I can say is I am happy with what I’ve seen in these last 2 games. We haven’t performed like that for a very long time, if ever. I personally just want the NT to play the best football possible with the best players possible. Not a big fan of Bakasetas or Giannoulis but if they continue to perform in this new system then they should continue on. Good performances should be rewarded. To me Paschalakis isn’t good enough. We also have better than Bakasetas, Giannoulis and Bakakis. But JVS has put in place a system and tactics where he has made the most out of these limited players and made them step up. This should be applauded. I just want the team to make the most of their chances and this would be done with more talented players like a Koutris or Fetfatzidis as an example.

I don’t think Fortounis can match the work rate and desire of Bakasetas but would be needed off the bench. Similarly the way Tsiartas was used. I also don’t think Fortounis can handle this new system. He hasn’t got the stamina to be effective in the new system I think. He is still definitely needed for his quality. He is also still young and there is room for further improvement. I would still play Mantalos over Bakasetas in the centre and have either Fetfa or Donis on the left wing. Limnios I believe should be rewarded another start at right wing.

[ThrylosG7]

I don’t think Fortounis can match the work rate and desire of Bakasetas but would be needed off the bench. Similarly the way Tsiartas was used. I also don’t think Fortounis can handle this new system. He hasn’t got the stamina to be effective in the new system I think. He is still definitely needed for his quality. He is also still young and there is room for further improvement. I would still play Mantalos over Bakasetas in the centre and have either Fetfa or Donis on the left wing. Limnios I believe should be rewarded another start at right wing.

Personally I think a fit and in form Fortounis starts in the team every time - and Masouras and Donis are better options than Limnios at this point imho - not that Limnios hasnt played well but they are just playing at a higher level week to week Donis for example played in both the wins against PSG and the French Cup winners Stade Rennais this season once as a CF and once as a AM which also shows his versatility...Masouras is a regular starter for Olympiacos both in the league and the CL. As they say in football though its a good headache to have

[Dean97]

True but I don’t think Fortounis hustles enough. With Bakasetas playing the way he did against Bosnia especially in the 2nd half I believe a player like Pelkas can do the same if not better. He has more pace, more energetic and all round better player. Also better centrally. Just going by the way team was set up Pelkas can succeed in the CAM role or false 9 role Bakasetas played.

With Fortounis I don’t think he can press for a long time the way Bakasetas did or the way Pelkas can. As I’ve seen Pelkas do the same and even more effectively. Fortounis quality is undeniable but he might not fit into the style we play. Unless I’m over analysing it and he would be just fine. I just want these performances to continue and improve even further. If Vant Schip can bring in Pelkas and make him effective the way he did with Bakasetas then I’m more than sure we would see an even better team performance. Even Mantalos would be fine in that role. As you can tell I’m a fan of Pelkas lol. Pelkas speed, hustle and technique can be an upgrade to Bakasetas. Which would mean we would be more threatening in attack. That’s if he’s played in the middle which is where he is best suited.

[ThrylosG7]

My issue with Bakasetas is his final product - no issues with his effort or his commitment. Pelkas I think is a better player overall as well .

[Greekfreak]

My issue with Bakasetas is his final product - no issues with his effort or his commitment. Pelkas I think is a better player overall as well .

Agreed, we had years to see him ply his trade at AEK and ultimately a bundle of energy but just not very skilled. Players like that have their worth to a point, but ultimately if he can't keep the ball or pass or shoot properly, then yeah--better off elsewhere.

[Amorgos]

Im not in agreement with much of this.

Bakasetas’s was the surprise player in these games, especially against Bosnia, he produced great passing, pressing and even showed great speed which he is not known for. Pelkas... perhaps JVS can get the better out of him but I don’t see Pelkas, for example setting up Fetfa at the end with such a neat pass like Baka did.

I think Fourtounis can relish in this system and provide another very effective outlet that puts more pressure on the opposition defence. Bakasetas can go down easy and get the foul but we have been very poor on set pieces now days, Fourtounis is more elusive and would help create more.

[Nikod]

Am I crazy in getting like budget-store Otto vibes from this coach?

[ThrylosG7]

Am I crazy in getting like budget-store Otto vibes from this coach?

With a more contemporary style of play you could see it that way yes...however he is no budget store....Otto had a far more distingushed managerial Career - but JVS had a very distinguished playing career - played under and worked under some very good managers - If he is as smart as he comes across he would have picked up a lot

[Don Giovanni]

He played under Rinus Michels, the man who defined total football. The movement of players, switching positions freely as our backline kept possession, and the width we played with allowed us to play out of the back effectively. It wasn't so much the quality of the passes improved, but Van't Schip encouraged players to play vertical passes and we had movement. No longer did we play the ball sideways without intent while players more or less stayed in the same stagnant position. The effect nullified Bosnia's press and allowed us to play the ball up field. But the players we had also made it work because many had the versatility to switch positions.

One more thing, although I don't think Stafylidis should play as a center-back, there may be a time when he's older when he will. The fact he was captain suggests in the future he will be the captain down the road. He's only 25, so for the next 10 years he's likely to remain a key figure if Greece continues to improve performance-wise, even if we fail to qualify for the World Cup.

[ThrylosG7]

i dont think he should either - I think going forward Manolas will be brought back as one CB , Sokratis will too I suspect if his ego can take losing the captaincy . As for who should be captain Greek tradition is that is goes to the player with the most caps - which is bullshit IMHO . We dont know the dressing room dynamics but it should be going to the dressing room leader .