Votanikos Stadium

[Reaper]

Looks like Dimitri got his way. He has managed to reduce a 42,000 seater stadium, to a 38,000 and now finally, on the biggest free plot in Athens - to just 32,000.. pathetic.

https://www.sport24.gr/football/omad...s.5570112.html

Clearly he is banking on the fans being like AEK fans with the 'at least it is something' gratefulness.

[Val]

Says we can expand to 38,000

[JVC]

Realistically, in Greece now the big 4 are selling season tickets for 150 Euros. Tickets should be selling for 100$ per match.....what's the point of selling 40K seats for 10 measly euros? Sell 10k seats for 100$. Just making a point here.

[Reaper]

Realistically, in Greece now the big 4 are selling season tickets for 150 Euros. Tickets should be selling for 100$ per match.....what's the point of selling 40K seats for 10 measly euros? Sell 10k seats for 100$. Just making a point here.

At Olympiacos, the season tickets are sold out - all 22,000. The cheapest were €500 (with the hardcore fans), the normal season tickets without a flare in your face start from €750 - the most expensive are - €2500.

One of the most common excuses in Greece for small stadiums - is that all the money is from TV. For a club like levadiakos, this is 100% true. Olympiacos on the other hand sold out all its CL games days in advance and made millions. If it was a 40k stadium, they would have made even more money - an extra 25% on top. The difference between maintaining a 32k stadium and a 40k stadium is minimal. Hopefully the Athens mayor forces Dimitri to stick the original 40k stadium. At the moment his plans are seriously stupid. He wants a smaller basketball stadium than he currently has the OAKA - even though it sells out constantly and he wants a smaller football stadium, even though there are full permissions for a 40k stadium and the stadium will also be used for international games and potentially even future UEFA tournaments.

On a sadder note, the PAO fans are not so happy about spending their hard cash for a stadium that will be smaller than the Karaiskaki - if that is in fact where their money will be going. Even PAO amateur wanted to rebuild the Leoforos to a capacity of 44,000. Dimitris' new small stadium wont sell well. I can see achieving this €20 million getting further and further away from reality. He makes mistake after mistake..

[JVC]

At Olympiacos, the season tickets are sold out - all 22,000. The cheapest were €500 (with the hardcore fans), the normal season tickets without a flare in your face start from €750 - the most expensive are - €2500.

One of the most common excuses in Greece for small stadiums - is that all the money is from TV. For a club like levadiakos, this is 100% true. Olympiacos on the other hand sold out all its CL games days in advance and made millions. If it was a 40k stadium, they would have made even more money - an extra 25% on top. The difference between maintaining a 32k stadium and a 40k stadium is minimal. Hopefully the Athens mayor forces Dimitri to stick the original 40k stadium. At the moment his plans are seriously stupid. He wants a smaller basketball stadium than he currently has the OAKA - even though it sells out constantly and he wants a smaller football stadium, even though there are full permissions for a 40k stadium and the stadium will also be used for international games and potentially even future UEFA tournaments.

On a sadder note, the PAO fans are not so happy about spending their hard cash for a stadium that will be smaller than the Karaiskaki - if that is in fact where their money will be going. Even PAO amateur wanted to rebuild the Leoforos to a capacity of 44,000. Dimitris' new small stadium wont sell well. I can see achieving this €20 million getting further and further away from reality. He makes mistake after mistake..

At this point nothing is concrete, 32K, 38K, 40K all talk. That said Alafouzo is the only person pumping money into the team....and in the end he holds the cards on what will happen. Are they going to build him a 32k stadium? I'm sure he will not object. Dimitri needs to go into his pockets, build the stadium and throw 40 million on top to Alafouzo for full control, does any of this make sense to you? That's the reason PAO fans are not 100 percent together on this. Alafouzo is still there....PAO fans will not fully get on board until someone buys him outright.

A more logical way to look at this....it would make more sense for Dimitri to buy out Alafouzo, and then proceed with the stadium. What this situation looks like right now, Dimitri has started a fundraising campaign to build a stadium for Alafouzo. Let's assume that the stadium gets going next year....will Alafouzo sell? What will the price tag be? 50 million? Now let's assume nobody buys....Alafouzo has a debt free club and a new stadium, and personally I can't see that happening. In the end we have long ways to go before we talk capacity....lets get this stadium in the construction stages and then bitch and complain why it's not 40k capacity.

[Reaper]

I am starting to get the feeling this man has not thought this through properly..

[JVC]

I am starting to get the feeling this man has not thought this through properly..

Maybe not. Lol

[Reaper]

As predicted, with each time Dimitri said the stadium would get smaller.. so the funding dried up. His PAOAlive donation scheme is stuck on only 600,000. Hopefully, he either gets behind at 40k stadium he initially promised and funding will start up again or is true to his word and leaves next year as he has fudged the whole thing and not achieved anywhere near his minimum target.

[JVC]

As predicted, with each time Dimitri said the stadium would get smaller.. so the funding dried up. His PAOAlive donation scheme is stuck on only 600,000. Hopefully, he either gets behind at 40k stadium he initially promised and funding will start up again or is true to his word and leaves next year as he has fudged the whole thing and not achieved anywhere near his minimum target.

Even if the plans were for a 50 k stadium....the funding would have stalled well short of 1 million. At this time....there's very little interest in Greek soccer. The money can only come from the owners pockets/government funding.

[JVC]

Basically what I'm saying is....this weekend for the top team in Greece, I can get the best sections beside VIP at Kareskaki for 40 Euros. The majority of the seats at 25 Euros. I can get the best AEK seats for 25 Euros, and PAO 15 Euros....I have it in front of me. Why are we talking stadium sizes? The people in Greece see this as garbage product and pay that way. 25 Euros? That's the cost of a movie. LMAO

I just bought Toronto maple leafs tickets for 300$ US each. And that's a bargain because it's Buffalo. In the western world that's average prices. 25 Euros?

The same tickets as Olympiakos selling for 25 Euros, Juventus vs Bologna are going for 295 Euros! Forget stadium sizes Reaper. Greece is not at the western worlds levels in sports, more like middle east. Lets focus on developing a real league.

[Reaper]

Basically what I'm saying is....this weekend for the top team in Greece, I can get the best sections beside VIP at Kareskaki for 40 Euros. The majority of the seats at 25 Euros. I can get the best AEK seats for 25 Euros, and PAO 15 Euros....I have it in front of me. Why are we talking stadium sizes? The people in Greece see this as garbage product and pay that way. 25 Euros? That's the cost of a movie. LMAO

I just bought Toronto maple leafs tickets for 300$ US each. And that's a bargain because it's Buffalo. In the western world that's average prices. 25 Euros?

The same tickets as Olympiakos selling for 25 Euros, Juventus vs Bologna are going for 295 Euros! Forget stadium sizes Reaper. Greece is not at the western worlds levels in sports, more like middle east. Lets focus on developing a real league.

Firstly - you can't assume Greece will always be as it is today - violence ridden, no law or order etc. That is a mistake Greek communists make constantly. The 'what is point, things will never change' argument. In the 50s to the early 70s - the only nation on earth growing faster than Greece was Japan. It was called the Greek economic miracle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_economic_miracle Greece experiences booms and busts. Therefore a sensible person will not build an audacious 60k stadium for the second biggest club in Greece - nor will they build a measly 30k on the massive Votanikos plot. They will build a 40k stadium (that already has permissions) that will allow Athens to be part of international tournaments in the future (generate money and jobs) - a stadium that the Greek NT can play in and also a stadium that will be full for derbies in the league, in Europe and in the Cup. This is not overly optimistic, it is sensible and what is more, logical.

Secondly, the next game Olympiacos has is against the mighty Volos.. lol. The game is almost sold out.. The main lateral stand opposite side of the pitch to the suits (gates 17 to 11) are 40 euros each. Either side of the VIP (that is sold out it) is €50. The VIP itself is sold out and costs a fortune..€100 VIP and €150 for VVIP. The suits are astronomically expensive.. To top that the VIP seats usually get sold out first and to further top that - these are the prices vs Volos! In European games, derbies etc, the tickets at Olympiacos are more expensive. Also the cheap tickets at Olympiacos 25 euros etc are on the horse shoes and those seats are terrible - I have only ever sat there so I know.

But it is meaningless... the clubs make more money from European game money, TV money etc. The crowds and sell outs pof which Olympiacos has many - give a couple of million per game. Add to this, both PAOK and Olympiacos have sold well over 22,000 season tickets already this season..

As for the middle east thing, I agree. But Greece wont always be like that. Greece will rise again and when it does, it is important this PAO stadium kills as many birds with one stone as possible. This stadium and development will also help Athens. The area is currently a dump and in danger of becoming little Afghanistan..

[JVC]

Firstly - you can't assume Greece will always be as it is today. That is a mistake Greek communists make constantly. The 'what is point, things will never change' argument. In the late 60s - the only nation on earth growing faster than Greece was Japan. Greece experiences booms and busts. Therefore a sensible person will not build a 60k stadium for the second biggest club in Greece - nor will they build a 30k. They will build a 40k stadium (that already has permissions) that will allow Athens to be part of an international tournament in the future (generate money and jobs) - a stadium that the Greek NT can play in and also a stadium that will be full for derbies in the league, in Europe and in the Cup. This is not overly optimistic, it is sensible.

Secondly, the next game Olympiacos has is against the mighty Volos.. lol. The game is almost sold out.. The main lateral stand opposite the suits (gates 17 to 11) are 40 euros each. Either side of the VIP that is sold it is €50. The VIP itself is sold out and costs a fortune..€100 VIP and €150 for VVIP. The suits are astronomically expensive.. To top that the VIP seats usually get sold out first and to further top that - these are the prices vs Volos! In European games, the tickets at Olympiacos are more expensive. Also the cheap tickets at Olympiacos 25 euros etc are on the horse shoes and those seats are terrible - I have only ever sat there so I know.

But it is meaningless... the clubs make more money from European game money, TV money etc. The crowds and sell outs pof which Olympiacos has many - give a couple of million per game. Add to this, both PAOK and Olympiacos have sold well over 22,000 season tickets already this season..

As for the middle east thing, I agree. But Greece wont always be like that. Greece will rise again and when it does, it is important this PAO stadium kills as many birnds with one stone as possible. This stadium and development will also help Athens. The area is currently a dump and in danger of becoming little Afghanistan..

Well I can't see it....obviously I'm hoping your optimism comes to light. At this point I can't see any stadium being built for PAO....Especially with Alafouzo at the helm, and we know he ain't leaving without 30 million in his hands. Anyway the league is hundreds of miles behind western Europe....and I can never see this gap closing....it will grow yearly.

[Reaper]

Well I can't see it....obviously I'm hoping your optimism comes to light.

It is not optimism, it is about economic cycles. For example, the UK has experienced a recession every 10 years or so since the 40s! Greece, because its economy and population is smaller has larger gaps between boom and bust, but there will be decades of big growth later this century in Greece.

At this point I can't see any stadium being built for PAO....Especially with Alafouzo at the helm, and we know he ain't leaving without 30 million in his hands. Anyway the league is hundreds of miles behind western Europe....and I can never see this gap closing....it will grow yearly.

The stadium funding plan Dimitri started was always stupid and ego driven. His statements - still being a bitter bitch over his Athens Alive failure were the final nail.. The stadium can be built, but it needs someone not necessarily of money (the Greek state and Greek banks will help the project financially) - but someone of substance..

For example, not these guys..

[Reaper]

So Dimitri set himself a target of €20 million to be raised by fans last year. He said if he didn't reach that figure he would leave the project this summer.

With summer fast approaching he has managed to raise through his PAOAlive scheme less than €800,000 - significantly less than other donation drives in PAO's past and well less than the €20 million target he publicly set.

So will he be true to his word and leave the project as he promised?

No chance..

[JVC]

So Dimitri set himself a target of €20 million to be raised by fans last year. He said if he didn't reach that figure he would leave the project this summer.

With summer fast approaching he has managed to raise through his PAOAlive scheme less than €800,000 - significantly less than other donation drives in PAO's past and well less than the €20 million target he publicly set.

So will he be true to his word and leave the project as he promised?

No chance..

Its not up to him, Alafouzo holds all the cards. Like I been saying from the beginning, it will cost Dimitri 30 million for 50 percent of the shares....after that they can discuss stadium. Or Alafouzo finds someone else. The Club will be debt free at the end of next season....which means Alafouzo is holding PAO as a 60 million security/ransom however you look at it.