Independence Day

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  • Independence Day

    Interesting map showing the years of occupation.


  • #2
    0 years Ionian Islands. That's where my family is from.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Val View Post
      0 years Ionian Islands. That's where my family is from.
      A real achievement. East Peloponese where my lot are from, Kynouria, had virtually no Turks living there either. Was rare to see one at all. Even the tax collectors they sent were not Turkish. Only foreigners were a few Albanian villages in the south of the province.

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      • #4
        That map seems to be missing a large swath of land east of the Aegean that still remain under Ottoman occupation. May we never forget how much they took from us and how much we took back on independence day.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Don Giovanni View Post
          That map seems to be missing a large swath of land east of the Aegean that still remain under Ottoman occupation. May we never forget how much they took from us and how much we took back on independence day.
          Nice avatar btw. ^^

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          • #6
            A few days late, but xronia polla fellas. What's interesting about the map Reaper posted is how it ties in to my personal understanding of modern Greek history.

            I did not know places like Thessaly, Epirus, Macedonia, etc weren't incorporated into the modern Greek state immediately after the epanastasi from I learned in Greek school as a kid. Learning about the Macedonian Struggle, Balkan Wars, Asia Minor catastrophe was all on my own time as a teen/young adult.

            Seeing how the struggle for freedom lasted in various Greek speaking areas for another century puts things into perspective.

            I agree including Mikra Asia and the Pontus would be interesting as well. I weep for a possible reality where these lands were re-incorporated into an autonomous Hellenic state. The war that lasted from 1919-1922 really sealed the fate of what type of country that Greece would be.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Soprano76 View Post
              A few days late, but xronia polla fellas. What's interesting about the map Reaper posted is how it ties in to my personal understanding of modern Greek history.

              I did not know places like Thessaly, Epirus, Macedonia, etc weren't incorporated into the modern Greek state immediately after the epanastasi from I learned in Greek school as a kid. Learning about the Macedonian Struggle, Balkan Wars, Asia Minor catastrophe was all on my own time as a teen/young adult.

              Seeing how the struggle for freedom lasted in various Greek speaking areas for another century puts things into perspective.

              I agree including Mikra Asia and the Pontus would be interesting as well. I weep for a possible reality where these lands were re-incorporated into an autonomous Hellenic state. The war that lasted from 1919-1922 really sealed the fate of what type of country that Greece would be.
              Very true. This is why I am constantly bewildered by the Greek anti-monarchists. Without George I - Salonika would have never been liberated. I believe the monarchy became useless after George I and was rightly removed but Greeks could show a little respect and class and remember George I more fondly.

              Sometimes I wonder if perhaps the loss of Anatolia was for the best sometimes. Even if Hellas had won Ankara - Anatolia is very hard to defend and there could have been an even worse disaster along the road somewhere. Greeks never had the population to fill Anatolia alone. The minute the Greeks went for Ankara and broke the Venizelos plan - Greece lost all international support.

              Maybe if that monkey bite didn't happened (Alexander I) and Venizelos was still in charge in that war, Greece would have probably had a better outcome. Held Izmir, concentrated on Poli and left Ankara and the rest to the east to the Turks. I think something like the famous Megali Idea map was achievable.

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              • #8
                Reaper

                My understanding was that the King wanted to take Monastiri but was convinced otherwise by his advisors. I may be wrong on that.

                Yes an alternate reality where the monkey bite never happens and Greece does not overstep the boundaries set out by its more powerful allies would have been interesting. In the wake of Greece holding on to Smyrna/East Thrace, I reckon WW2 would have been different given that the Turks remained neutral until the end of the war, from what I remember.

                Instead of a regional power with a population of 30-40 million, Greece is a bankrupt country with 11 million and shrinking. Turkey is too strong to catch up with now.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Soprano76 View Post
                  Reaper

                  My understanding was that the King wanted to take Monastiri but was convinced otherwise by his advisors. I may be wrong on that.

                  Yes an alternate reality where the monkey bite never happens and Greece does not overstep the boundaries set out by its more powerful allies would have been interesting. In the wake of Greece holding on to Smyrna/East Thrace, I reckon WW2 would have been different given that the Turks remained neutral until the end of the war, from what I remember.

                  Instead of a regional power with a population of 30-40 million, Greece is a bankrupt country with 11 million and shrinking. Turkey is too strong to catch up with now.
                  Yes, that is because they have been proactive - where as Greece.. it is hard to find a country that has continued with the strategy of managed decline for as long as Greece has.. Maybe Armenia? Georgia? Romania? Ukraine..These types of nations continue to lose territoriality.

                  What I would have liked (and more importantly what would have been defendable, is Greece ending on the West side of the Bosporus. I suspect Anatolian gains would have been hard to hold on to.

                  How Greece conspired to lose Northern Epirus - despite being on the winning side of WW2 - is another marvel of incompetence.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Reaper View Post

                    Yes, that is because they have been proactive - where as Greece.. it is hard to find a country that has continued with the strategy of managed decline for as long as Greece has.. Maybe Armenia? Georgia? Romania? Ukraine..These types of nations continue to lose territoriality.

                    What I would have liked (and more importantly what would have been defendable, is Greece ending on the West side of the Bosporus. I suspect Anatolian gains would have been hard to hold on to.

                    How Greece conspired to lose Northern Epirus - despite being on the winning side of WW2 - is another marvel of incompetence.
                    The Civil war did us no favor and is one of the darkest pages in our history.

                    If the Greek army hadn't been so reckless in the 1920s and decided to defend New Smyrna and agree a peace treaty with the unstable Turkish goverment in 1922, all of the islands in the Aegeum would belong to Greece right now, as well as a small part of Smyrna (Izmir).

                    Would have been preferable to stop the war in 1922 and maybe exchange the entire region of Smyrna (nowadays known as Izmir) with a small part of Thrace (where many Turks lived). That way, the brutal population exchange (1922-23) and the refugee crisis that proceeded it would have never happened.

                    I am currently reading Ilias Venezi's book about his experiences in the Turkish military camps as a result of the Turkish conquest of Smyrna. Turks who had to migrate also struggled a bit and, in general, millions of people were displaced.

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                    • #11
                      Another interesting piece of history. Greece remained neutral for decent chunk of WW1 due to the King's cultural/ancestral ties to Germany. Venizelos was more inclined to an alliance with the Brits. Britain tried coaxing Greece to enter the war, even offering up Cyprus in exchange. This is also why Greece was in a poor position to bargain for Voreio Hpeiro after the war's end.

                      These issues reared their ugly head again during the Asia Minor Catastrophe. After the King's death, infighting broke out and many officers in the army were replaced by the inexperienced. I believe there was a rift between Venizelos and royals, but I may be wrong here. Greece lost its support from the great powers and thus out of luck. Of note, Ioannis Metaxas (who would take power several years later) believed that pushing into Anatolia was the wrong move and preferred consolidating control in Eastern Thrace/up to the Poli.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Soprano76 View Post
                        Another interesting piece of history. Greece remained neutral for decent chunk of WW1 due to the King's cultural/ancestral ties to Germany. Venizelos was more inclined to an alliance with the Brits. Britain tried coaxing Greece to enter the war, even offering up Cyprus in exchange. This is also why Greece was in a poor position to bargain for Voreio Hpeiro after the war's end.

                        These issues reared their ugly head again during the Asia Minor Catastrophe. After the King's death, infighting broke out and many officers in the army were replaced by the inexperienced. I believe there was a rift between Venizelos and royals, but I may be wrong here. Greece lost its support from the great powers and thus out of luck. Of note, Ioannis Metaxas (who would take power several years later) believed that pushing into Anatolia was the wrong move and preferred consolidating control in Eastern Thrace/up to the Poli.
                        Had we annexed a bigger chunk of Turkey, there would be atleast one war between us and Turkey between the 1920s and today.

                        We should have only kept a small part of Smyrna, the tradition of Smyrna is amazing.

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