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Bulgarians with the help of Tito and with Tsipras' help, have nearly resulted in the outright selling out of Macedonia. Will the Prespes agreement go through?
Discuss!!!
Discuss!!!
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This is all about bringing trans-Macedonia into the orbit of NATO/EU influence. Nothing has effectively changed with respect to progress on the name change, but everyone did a little song and dance to make it appear as if something had changed. This is a shell game to justify Skopje's ascension to NATO/EU. After thirty years of their pathetic independence parading around under an assumed identity, they can now enjoy the privilege of taking dictates from Brussels instead of Belgrade.-
Oh for sure that this all to do with limiting Russian influence in the Balkans. Ultimately, its a win win for the EU and US because of the geo-political chess game being played out in Europe.
But what I'd like to know is what did Tsipras and his crew get for this?
He will not be re-elected if things stand as they are
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Given his options, he found it better to give into the demands of Greece's paymasters, but the other problem is his own personal world outlook. Tsipras is an international socialist. He believes in the eventuality of a world government. This attitude is dominant among Europe's aristocrats, officials, financiers, media personalities, academics, and other "elitists." They are convinced the nation-state model will be a thing of the past within this century or, at the latest, the next. That's why the borders are overrun with migrants originating from the very countries that were ordered to be bombed to bits by the same politicians who welcome these migrants. And these politicians dare to shame people like you and me as racists because we opposed the bombing campaigns and believe in the rule of law. They have no honor, no shame. They're cowards of the worst variety.
These cowards and traitors are doing everything they can to change the demographics of our countries--to create new voting blocks made up of these foreigners who have no historic/patriotic ties to their new found homes in Europe. We are talking about a mass of people who can be influenced to vote against a nation's sovereign interests, something no patriot would do. They're working towards a European federation because the primary backers of this union, Germany and France--who as independent states acting completely on their own--have no meaningful standing in the world, but as a unified Europe, they'll become a real force to reckon with who can dictate global affairs and the course of human destiny. This is about power, not freedom or progress. Pure, naked power.
In Tsipras' little mind, he thinks he's on the right side of history and he has not the stomach nor the brains to stand up against the powers that be after that farce of a referendum he pulled. He's a loser. If he had any courage, any bravery, he would have told the EU to stick it where it hurts when the people of Greece, still mostly Greek and patriotic, had voted as much, just like the British had done and soon others too. The EU is doomed and they blew it with their handling of the migrant crisis and unending wars. History's losers is what they are. Cowards, all of them.Comment
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Agreed.
As a side note, the referendum on the name in the shithole country up north is going to be held on the 30th. I'm almost praying they vote no, but I just can't see the population passing up on NATO/EU access, even if its years away. That country, in my eyes, is a ticking time bomb with its massive Albanian minority, and lack of cohesive identity.Comment
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It would be a firm "no" but for some reason the Bulgarians, in their infinite stupidity, are choosing to boycott the election instead of voting. Dumbass cunts.Comment
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http://www.ekathimerini.com/232251/a...edonia-in-2008
The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) was willing to accept the name Republic of Northern Macedonia or Republic of North Macedonia as early as 2008, provided it included the recognition of the “Macedonian” language and nationality, according to a cable of the US embassy in Skopje, released by Wikileaks.
The classified cable, titled “What the Macedonians need to resolve the name dispute”, is dated July 29,2008 and was compiled by the then US Ambassador to the neighboring country, Gillian Milovanovic.
The cable shows FYROM's negotiating targets have not changed much in the last decade and were achieved - to a certain extent - with the signing of the Greek-FYROM deal in Prespes Lake region in June this year.
In the first part of the cable, Milovanovic presents her conclusions following meetings with FYROM's leadership at the time, President Branko Crvenkovskiand Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski, stating what conditions would be acceptable to the country.
These include the following (as quoted in the cable):
"Name: Republic of Northern Macedonia or Republic of North Macedonia
--Scope: in all international organizations, plus bilaterally by any country that does not want to use the constitutional name. (Although we have not discussed this explicitly, presumably international agreements would follow the same pattern, with multilateral ones using the new name and bilateral ones having the option.) Macedonia would use its constitutional name in referring to itself, on passports, product labels, in the media, etc.
-- Identity: The language and nationality would be called Macedonian, but this could be handled tacitly, perhaps as a subsequent annex to a UNSCR, or in some other internal UN document not subject to Greek review/approval. Bottom line is Macedonia needs assurance that their language, nationality, etc. would continue to be called Macedonian, not North Macedonian."
The full Wikileaks file can be found in this link: https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08SKOPJE491_a.html
Well well well, Syriza has outdone itself.
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Knowing how bad the greek media is, probably not.Comment
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http://www.ekathimerini.com/232315/a...-take-25-years
If the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) or Greece do not ratify the agreement achieved between the two countries on the name of the former, it may take more than two decades to reach another, United Nations envoy Matthew Nimetz said in an interview with Balkans Insight on Wednesday.
The deal, reached between the two countries in late June this year, will rename the country “North Macedonia,” ending 27 years of disputes.
“I hope the agreement will pass, and I think it will pass in both countries, because it is a fair and honorable solution that meets the essential interests of both countries, but if it doesn’t get approved I do not see another solution in the near term,” he was quoted as saying.
“It has taken 25 years to achieve this agreement, it may take another 25 years. And a lot of people will lose interest if this does not pass in your country,” he added.
Nimetz said if FYROM rejects the deal in the upcoming referendum on September 30, the country will be perceived as not being interested in finding a solution, or joining the European Union or NATO.
Oldest trick in the book is for someone to put pressure by using time as an excuse. Nimitz claims that if the agreement doesn't pass, it may not be for another 25 years that a solution occurs. Greece should not ratify any agreement and even if the skops hold a referendum, it means fuck all if the agreement doesn't pass in greek parliament. A bad deal cannot be pushed on with the excuse that time is of the essence. We've waited since the early 90's, and somehow because we have a traitor as PM, they think a deal is in the best interest.
No country should have to contend that its neighbors would like to share history, and falsely claim an identity.
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Some points..
To get a chance to make this deal again does not take 25 years. The only ingredient needed is a Greek Communist Government.
Secondly..how come a bunch of turko gypsy slavs get a referendum on this key issue and not Greeks?
Every single "greek" who voted Syriza or Anel is responsible for this catastrophe. The blood is on their hands.Comment
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I went back and forth with a Greek journalist on exactly the same point "how come Greeks don't get a referendum" and he said well how can Greece get a referendum on a countries name/decision. Except these morons don't understand that this isn't just a name - its a cultural, all econompassing identity. If any of these dumb asses would pick up a history book and read they would understand that these slavs have been trying to get access to macedonia for the longest. This is all a plan to get access to the Mediterranean. It has now morphed into a way to make sure Russias influence in the Balkans is curtailed so there's no WW3 as Balkans are a hot spot for flare ups, which is also code for the new cold war which we see transpiring with a very heavy anti-russia attitude in the western press.
The people who voted for Syriza now have to collectively realize that the party they ruled in, which fed them lies of Greece not taking a bad deal with its creditors, has also lied in regards to the name crisis.
Syriza is a fraud and we can only hope that the deal is not ratified in parliament. If this was 30 or 40 years ago, Greeks would have forcibly removed Syriza from officeLast edited by Filikieteria1821; 09-05-2018, 04:20 PM.Comment
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Remember Tsipras and his lackeys hailing the deal as a massive win
Well, obviously the Wikileaks memo from 2008 shows the complete opposite.
Nice read https://www.neweurope.eu/article/wik...-center-stage/
The Prespes Agreement – the latest attempt to end the quarter-century-long Name Dispute between Greece and its neighbour FYROM/Macedonia by renaming the latter ‘the Republic of North Macedonia’ – is back in the international headlines only three months after being signed by Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras and his counterpart in Skopje, Zoran Zaev.
The issue over the ratification of the Agreement had, through most of the summer, temporarily fallen from the top tier of public debate after Greece was deeply preoccupied with the tragic deadly fires that struck near Athens in late July, a mini-government reshuffle, and the country’s emergence in late August from the eight-year financial bailout programme.
This changed on September 3 with the curiously-timed Wikileaks release of an American diplomatic cable sourced from the US Embassy in Skopje in 2008 asserting the then-hardline Macedonian/FYROM government could accept a name switching deal that is remarkably similar to what was agreed earlier this year, which served to deeply undercut what Tsipras has up-to-now portrayed as a major success. Rumblings over the cable’s significance continued in a series of tense exchanges between the main opposition party, New Democracy, and the ruling Syriza-Independent Greeks coalition.
In Skopje, the Wikileaks release was portrayed as a form of vindication, especially when it comes to the nationality issue, but the real focus has been elsewhere. The carefully-structured ratification process included in the June 17 Prespes Agreement appeared to proceed steadily throughout the summer, with Zaev skillfully overcoming a series of tough obstacles.
Zaev has received strong support over the last months from Berlin, Washington, and NATO, with several high-level visitors in tow. Even if all the hurdles laid out in the Prespes Agreement are cleared in Macedonia/FYROM over the course of 2018, the deal still faces a painful uphill ratification battle in the Greek parliament sometime in early 2019, quite possibly leading to a government collapse and early elections.
Greek attention shifted from Balkan issues over the summer
Nobody expects much policy debate during the month of August in Greece. This was especially true this year with the country so deeply preoccupied with the aftermath of the massive fires that resulted in 96 deaths. This was followed shortly thereafter by the official end of the Eurozone bailout program on August 20 and an unimpressive mini-reshuffle of Tsipras’ increasingly embattled government. The debate over the Prespes Agreement would likely have returned to centre stage for the launch of the Thessaloniki International Fair (TIF) on September 8, where the United States is the “Honoured Country” this year for its commercial and technological prominence and positive role in the region, but this is not directly tied to its role in helping to reach a deal with Skopje.
Wikileaks strikes again
In what appears to be an attempt to upstage the opening of the international fair in Thessaloniki, the controversial whistleblower website WikiLeaks released on September 3 a telegram not included in its previous troves that brought the Prespes Deal into question, effectively minimising the alleged diplomatic achievements of the recently-reshuffled Tsipras government.
The classified cable, titled “What the Macedonians need to resolve the name dispute”, is dated July 29, 2008, was a compilation of discussions with the then-leadership of Macedonia/FYROM, including their demands to retain use of the constitutional name (Republic of Macedonia) at home and for retention of a “Macedonian” nationality.
Following the release of the WikiLeaks cable, New Democracy leader Kyriakos Mitsotakis, who is widely favoured to win the next election, issued a highly-critical statement that cast doubt over earlier claims by Tsipras that the Agreement – which was named after a lage freshwater lake located on the borders of northern Greece, Albania, and FYROM/Macedonia – was a major foreign policy success for his government.
“Today’s revelation from Wikileaks, that Skopje had been asking since 2008 to name their country “North Macedonia” and their people ‘Macedonians’ who supposedly speak the ‘Macedonian’ language confirms in the most tragic way what I have been stressing all those months. That [PM Alexis] Tsipras, [Defence Minister Panos] Kammenos and [Foreign Minister Nikos] Kotzias wanted to present their extremely damaging agreement for Greece as a success, which satisfied what Skopje demanded for years, and which had been rejected by all previous governments. I reiterate my commitment: New Democracy is not going to ratify this agreement”, said Mitsotakis.
Greece’ Foreign Minister Nikos Kotzias responded tersely to Mitsotakis’ claims, saying, “It is known that (then-FYROM/Macedonia PM Nikola) Gruevski did not want any solution to the name dispute. In order to mock the international players, he pretended to be forced to accept a compromise. No one believed him. Except, in retrospect, Mr Mitsotakis”.
Kotzias noted that the Wikileaks cable show how Skopje still demanded the use of its constitutional name “Macedonia” (unmodified) for domestic use – a condition that he claims New Democracy had accepted at the time and which is far less than the changes required by the “erga omnes” (one name for all uses) conditions as spelled out in the Prespes Agreement.
Calm on the Russian front
The Greek-Russia spat that coincidentally surfaced just as the NATO Brussels Summit convened on July 11-12, steadily increased in intensity over the month of July with a series of tit-for-tat diplomatic expulsions. The public has still not seen the evidence justifying the expulsions that the Greek Foreign Ministry claims to possess, as do some officials in Skopje, regarding Russian support for Greek nationalist and religious organisations that are currently protesting the Prespes Agreement.
While high-level Moscow-Athens visits that were in the planning stages have now apparently been postponed, there is no indication the mid-summer “chill” in relations will continue for much longer or impact major strategic decisions between Russia’s President Vladimir Putin and Tsipras, whose governments are regarded as being closely linked on many regional issues.
Major demonstration planned for Thessaloniki
Greek groups who oppose the Prespes Agreement have called for demonstrations to begin on September 8, ostensibly to get Tsipras’ attention while he is in Thessaloniki for several high-profile TIF inaugural events and speeches. Questions over whether there will be any kind of anti-American focus to the protests due to the fact that the event is highlighting the US’ role in Greece and the Balkans. US Secretary of Commerce Wilbur Ross is also expected to attend the opening of the international fair.
The US Consulate in Thessaloniki has already taken the precautionary measure of warning its citizens that thousands of demonstrators are expected in Greece’s second city over the course of the international fair scheduled for September 7-16.
Hard work needed to deliver a positive referendum vote
The summer preparations in Macedonia/FYROM have largely focused on intensive preparations for a September 30 national referendum on the Prespes Agreement. After first setting the date, Zaev faced problems getting a new election commission established and in setting on a question for the referendum, which the hardline nationalist opposition VMRO-DPMNE will likely decide to boycott. A potential boycott by the nationalists could be significant as a 50% participation figure is needed for the referendum to be declared successful.
Ultimately, and once again without the support of the political opposition, Zaev was able to ultimately resolve the issue over the referendum question with voters being asked: “Are you for EU and NATO membership by accepting the agreement between the Republic of Macedonia and the Republic of Greece?”
Zaev’s ability to settle on a single question for voters to decide on, once again, had to be done without the support of the opposition. The willingness to do whatever is needed to keep both the vote and the Prespes deal on track has drawn daily criticism of Zaev, both at home and from various diaspora groups, due to what they say is the contentious wording of the referendum question.
“The question is ambiguous and multifaceted, and above all manipulative,” one leading VMRO-DPMNE party leader said. Observers have also spotted increasing numbers of “#Boycott” T-shirts on the streets in Skopje.
Local polls in Skopje are currently showing a slight movement towards a “YES” vote. Perhaps because of the difficult battle Zaev faces, foreign support for the referendum is seen as essential. In what looks amazingly like a coordinated “save the referendum” project by pro-NATO and pro-EU enlargement leaders, a flood of key visitors has been announced. NATO’s Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg visits September 5 before heading to Athens to discuss the NATO accession path for Skopje; Sebastian Kurz, Austria’s Chancellor will arrive two days later on September 7, and German Chancellor Angela Merkel will be in Skopje to meet with Zaev on September 8.
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The Skopian PM says every interview now - that the Greeks have allowed him and his nation to call themselves and their language 'Macedonian.'
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Why wouldn't they? They are proud that they pretty much made Greece look like a bitch and to be able to pull off the biggest identity theft scam of all time? On a huge region of greece that's history dates back thousands of years and is attached to one of the worlds largest empires???
I would too.
Only saving grace at this point is elections are forced in short order (which rumor has it they may happen in May 2019 - Kammenos spoke about this but he's a lying sack of shit so I doubt it happens), some of Syriza members decide to save face and at the last second vote against the agreement (likely not happening given they could care less about Greece) or Greeks force a military coup (which in today's day, doesn't seem likely either).
The more time passes the more I believe that Greece has sold itself out in the interest of what the globalists wanted. NATO wants to expand into western Balkans as does the EU. Since Greece is essentially a vassal state that owes billions of dollars, they almost have to oblige to the orders given.
The fact that Greece has a leftist government that does not believe in culture, borders, or anything that has created the Greek identity, it seems far fetched to think the deal won't go through. At this time, it's pretty safe to say that Greece's governing leaders live for the sole purpose of doing everything to hurt Greece.Comment
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The underlined section embodies Tsipras, and why this whole thing is a farce aimed at destroying Greece
Speculation about possible snap elections in May resurfaced on Tuesday after Panos Kammenos, the leader of junior coalition partner Independent Greeks (ANEL), said his party would not back the Macedonia name deal if it comes to Parliament.
Kammenos’s comments came two days after Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras said he was convinced that his coalition partner would not put the government’s stability at risk over the name deal and that discussions about the coalition’s prospects would be held in February, when the agreement is expected to go to Parliament.
Kammenos, who is also defense minister, told a press conference at the Thessaloniki International Fair on Tuesday that his party does not have the mandate to back the deal.
“My first proposal to the prime minister will be for the people to take a position with a referendum, the second for any discussion [on the issue] to be put off until after the end of our four-year term, and the third to go to polls,” Kammenos said.
As Tsipras has rejected the idea of a referendum and made it clear that the name deal will come to Parliament around February, the comments fueled talk that general elections scheduled for the fall will take place in May, along with local authority and European elections.
Tsipras referred to the name agreement between Greece and the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) on Tuesday during a speech before the European Parliament in Strasbourg.
“After 26 years of disastrous nationalism, we managed, together with the prime minister of FYROM, Mr Zaev, to turn a page and achieve a mutually acceptable agreement,” Tsipras said, referring to FYROM Premier Zoran Zaev.
Zaev, who for weeks hailed the agreement as a success for Skopje for securing a “Macedonian” language and identity, on Tuesday spoke of a “compromise” that he reached with a “heavy heart” in comments that were widely seen as an attempt to appease the Greek side.
He also appealed to FYROM citizens to support the deal in a referendum on September 30. “The time has come for us to become members of Europe and NATO,” he said.
Speaking in Strasbourg, European Commission Vice President Valdis Dombrovskis hailed Tsipras and Zaev for showing “courage and leadership.”
The very notion that people who object to the theft of their identity by frauds is somehow being understood as disastrous nationalism.
That in and of itself is a microcosm of the left's thinking in the western world. You believe in borders? You're a racist. You believe in culture? Racist. You believe in history, well history is racist, so lets be inclusive. Nimitz was not a moron to take on this deal now that he had the proper people running Greece. While Greeks looked for relief from bailouts, they not only got fed lies and found themselves worse off, they also got hoodwinked and their identity and history stolen.
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