Turkey

[Don Giovanni]

The Limnos was watching the Oruç Reis from a safe distance. The Kemal Reis, considered one of the best ships in the Turkish Navy, estimated that the Greek warship was planning to obstruct the navigation of Oruç Reis.

The captain of the Greek frigate, Lieutenant Captain Saliaris, followed a steady course and continued the voyage to monitor the Turkish research vessel without changing direction. The Kemal Reis continued to approach the Greek warship.

When it was about 450 yards away from the Greek warship, the captain of the Turkish frigate had to according to international navigation rules give priority to the Greek frigate – but did not. The result was that the Greek frigate with its bow collided with the rear of the Turkish frigate through exceptional seamanship.

Normal weather conditions prevailed in the area and both warships were moving at a relatively low speed.

A few days after the event, the Minister of Defense, Nikos Panagiotopoulos, contacted Saliaris and congratulated him, telling him: “You’re a player, congratulations,” as reported by Greek City Times.

What makes the movements by Lieutenant Captain Saliaris all the more extraordinary is that he did this with a 38-year-old vessel, considered one of the weakest warships in the Greek Navy, as of opposed to the Kemal Reis that is one of the main ships of the Turkish Navy.

[tantra]

https://twitter.com/camanpour/status...50232976195585

[Don Giovanni]

But it's the New York Times tantra, they're the paper of record. Ambassador Stevens and 4 other American servicemen died because some Libyans got upset over this movie:

Thy weren't killed by a planned terrorist attack meant to commemorate 9/11. No, no, no. It was because of a riot of over the dumbest movie ever made.

According to the "Times," Greece took 1,072 migrants, who were being held in detention centers, back out to sea and then dumped them. Where is the logic in this?

The woman they cite for the article, she's probably the only women among the group, had made several attempts to be smuggled into the country:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/14/w...oning-sea.html

With few prospects in Turkey, the family tried to reach Greece by boat three times this summer, failing once in May because their smuggler did not show up, and a second time in June after being intercepted in Greek waters and towed back to the Turkish sea border, she said.

She couldn't apply for asylum while in Turkey? Turkey isn't safe? I thought Turkey had a deal with the EU for this exact purpose.

Ms. al-Khatib tried to reach Greece for a fourth time, on Aug. 6, but said her boat was stopped off the island of Lesbos by Greek officials, who removed its fuel and towed it back to Turkish waters

Oddly, after that experience, she tried to sneak back into Greece.

[aek66]

I'm inclined to believe the capable cutting was true and that we probably had help.

so many variables here.

if true, a massive success for the greek navy. i don't know the sonar capabilities and tracking systems of turkish frigates/corvettes and i don't know the depth of the sea at that exact location and if the cables were trolling or had hit bottom. the only thing we know is that this particular greek submarine can operate at approximate depths of nearly 300 meters/900 feet.

if true, much like the shooting down of a turkish f-16 by a greek mirage - this will be kept hush-hush for years - as to not give evidence and extent of greek capabilities and also not to further agitate the turks. the collision of the frigates has seen the opposite, the govt. has publicly congratulated the captain of the greek frigate.

we just saw a retired turkish naval officer on turkish tv warn his comrades that the greek air force is basically on par with the turkish air force and can strike targets deep inside turkey. the numbers are similar, turkey has a few dozen more current gen. multi-fighters.... i'd feel more comfortable if greece had an additional 38 euro typhoons, along with it's f-16s and mirages.

[Don Giovanni]

Initially all parties agreed to downplay the incident involving the warships, but Erdogan made it appear as if Turkey got the better of us when the opposite was true. I don't think either government has acknowledged anything officially, but the details are becoming public.

Beyond our competing assets, I'm worried about their propaganda. The New York Times is running with it since it fits their narrative about migrants. Leaving the migrants stranded in sea I can believe, but in the cover of the night we are dumping people back into the sea? That doesn't add up. They have no hard evidence, only claims.

[Don Giovanni]

A sobering opinion piece

[Don Giovanni]

This was a piece published in a British paper.

[JVC]

Have we bought the Belharra Frigates from France yet....that would take our fleet to another level. Its been 3 years of talks??? 2 billion dollars for 2 plus 2 more option....they can have 4 out there for under 4 billion. I THINK WE NEED TO MOVE OUR ASSES FAST!!!

[JVC]

We need those Belharra Frigates ASAP! At the moment both Greece and Turkey can't protect their Frigates from enemy fire....those FREMMS would be able to cover all Greek Frigates. The clock is ticking....next year Turkeys aircraft carrier will be ready, and if we're not prepared, God help us!

[Don Giovanni]

I can't comment on what exactly our defenses need. It's very obvious given our shortcomings we really need more commitment from our allies to back us up and to deny Erdogan any leverage

It finally seems clear that regardless of who wins the US election, very little will actually change. This article from WaPo all but confirms that:

Erdogan doesn’t need to worry. If elected, Biden would also cultivate a relationship with the Turkish leader and even curry favors in an attempt to keep the country in the NATO fold. He may not be as accommodating as Trump, but there wouldn’t be a radical breakdown in the U.S. policy — Turkey is too big and too critical to U.S. strategic interests.

[aek66]

We need those Belharra Frigates ASAP! At the moment both Greece and Turkey can't protect their Frigates from enemy fire....those FREMMS would be able to cover all Greek Frigates. The clock is ticking....next year Turkeys aircraft carrier will be ready, and if we're not prepared, God help us!

the latest that i had read is that the french govt. needs to accept greek payment terms (10 years vs. 5 years) and also awaiting greek input on the model - greece will want this system or that missile for it's needs in shallow seas.

the good news about the turkish 'carrier' is that now that turkey is out of the f-35 program, latest generation multi-purpose fighters won't be on it's deck. it will posses helicopters and drones, like the 'carriers' the french, spanish and italian navies have in the mediterranean.

looking forward, 2 anti-air frigates to protect task forces (when and if those french frigates go into operation) in at least 2 areas of operations (example the eastern mediterranean as currently seen and aegean sea) are also needed. the turks are currently trying to develope their own prototype anti-air frigate.

[Filikieteria1821]

Turkey has gone ahead and made the Chora church a mosque, exactly a month after making Agia Sofia a mosque.

Seems like Erdogan is just following the foot steps Ataturk and the young turks took .

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-t...-idUSKBN25H1AZ

No surprise really, Erdogan has made it clear his intentions, it's those who ignore him or feel like he's out of his mind that are not paying attention and living in denial.

He also announced that they have discovered a large natural gas reserve in the black sea, that could take 10 years to fully extract and put into use. Claims are it can sustain Turkish energy needs for 20 years. But analysts said that it doesn't really alter anything, and economically, the announcement didn't alter the fast plunging lira.

One thing that stuck out to me was this though

“Turkey has realized the greatest natural gas discovery in its history,” he said. “We are determined to solve our energy issue. We will not stop until we become a net exporter of energy.”

Erdogan is going to keep going in the aegean/east med because he wants to ultimately be a world power and an energy hub.

Also newsworthy, Turkish airlines (partially state owned) has ceased all flights to/from Greece and the UAE and said they would be boycotting the two countries.

Thank you for doing something that Greece has failed to do.

[Filikieteria1821]

The belh@rra frigates have great capabilities, but are going to be a very expensive and long term purchase. Right now Greece needs to have a short,medium,long term plan for its armed forces.

I think that aside from getting a squadron of f35's, Greece should look to France for more arms purchases. It is undeniable that France still believes in the use of its armed forces to project power, while Merkel wants dialogue to solve problems.

She knows full well that dialogue will not help the scenario, and I think that Macron knows that the only way to keep the turks at bay is to flex military strength. Greece cannot under any circumstance sit and speak with the Turks under the current set of conditions. As far as I can tell, the next move for Greece is an EEZ agreement with Cyprus & an extension to 12 for the EEZ. Greece should do this citing consistent turkish aggression

[JVC]

The belh@rra frigates have great capabilities, but are going to be a very expensive and long term purchase. Right now Greece needs to have a short,medium,long term plan for its armed forces.

I think that aside from getting a squadron of f35's, Greece should look to France for more arms purchases. It is undeniable that France still believes in the use of its armed forces to project power, while Merkel wants dialogue to solve problems.

She knows full well that dialogue will not help the scenario, and I think that Macron knows that the only way to keep the turks at bay is to flex military strength. Greece cannot under any circumstance sit and speak with the Turks under the current set of conditions. As far as I can tell, the next move for Greece is an EEZ agreement with Cyprus & an extension to 12 for the EEZ. Greece should do this citing consistent turkish aggression

The Belharra Frigates are a must....forget the fact that Turkey can't get the F-35. The aircraft carrier will be loaded with anti aircraft missiles, and will have long range capabilities. Also will shield 10 Frigates at a time, allowing Turkey to launch at will deep into Greek targets.

The Belharra will provide the same capabilities to Greece....allowing all our Frigates free access into Turkey, and will increase our striking distance to 1000km from the sea. IMO Greece needs them right now.

[aek66]

https://www.iiss.org/blogs/military-...-mediterranean

Selected Greek and Turkish naval assets
Greece				Turkey
Class	Classification	Age*	Number	Class	Classification	Age*	Number
Submarines
Poseidon	SSK	41	4	Gur	SSK	17	4
Glavkos	SSK	48	3	Atilay	SSK	44	4
Papanikolis	SSK	10	4	Preveze	SSK	26	4
				Piri Reis**	SSK**		6**
Principal surface combatants
Elli	FFGHM	39	9	Barbaros	FFGHM	27	4
Hydra	FFGHM	28	4	Gabya	FFGHM	23	8
				Yavuz	FFGHM	33	4
				Ada	FFGHM	9	4
				Istanbul**	FFGHM**		1**
Patrol and coastal combatants
Roussen	FSGM	15	6 + 1**	Burak	FSG	19	6
Principal amphibious ships
				Anadolu**	LHD**		1**
Source: IISS Military Balance+ online database *Years of active service since the commissioning of the first ship of the class **Current construction or contracted programmes SSK: Conventionally powered attack submarine FFGHM: Guided missile frigate with a hangar and surface-to-air missiles FSG/FSGM: Guided missile corvette/with surface-to-air missiles LHD: Amphibious assault ship