Turkey

[Reaper]

We confront their ships and force them out, preferably with EU and NATO backing.

EU and NATO will not get involved. EU/Germany banned Greece attending the Berlin meeting for Libya. The most the EU will do is tell Turkey to behave which it will correctly ignore. NATO will do nothing.

So, your plan - or your belief is that Greece will confront these ships. How exactly? Move them away from Crete like bumper cars?

[Don Giovanni]

That's why I added the word "preferably." We may have to go it alone if it really comes to that, but it really shouldn't come to that given the support France has shown.

I'm not of the opinion we should send troops yet. I posted this before and I think it's worth reposting because some of you seem to hold a view that Greece is doing nothing, when in fact we are getting involved, and in my opinion, the right way:

According to our sources in Brussels, Greece is already claiming the right to command the EUNAVFOR Med maritime operation off Libya, a reconfiguration of which was given minimalist approval by European Union member states on February 17. By taking charge of this operation, which should finally ensure that the Libyan arms embargo is brought into effect, Athens clearly wants to stop Turkey's deliveries to the Fayez Sarraj government in Tripoli, which in return is backing Turkey's claims over Cyprus's territorial waters. To get its way, Athena has indicated that it will provide several ships for the operation, as decisions are awaited regarding the operations' naval capacities on March 23. In any case, EUNAVFOR Med's headquarters is unlikely to stay in Rome and Real Admiral Fabio Agostini, who will succeed Enrico Credendino on February 21, will probably not stay in the job beyond March 23. If Athens succeeds, the main beneficiary will be Khalifa Haftar, who is on good terms with Greece. The eastern Libyan strong man does not care about the maritime blockade. His arms and equipment arrive by air from the United Arab Emirates and Jordan and overland from Egypt.

Unless Turkey puts their citizens on the ground to fight in Libya, then I don't see any need for Greek troops in Libya. If we go in, the objective ought to be to defeat Turkish forces and to assist Haftar within reason.

[Reaper]

That's why I added the word "preferably." We may have to go it alone if it really comes to that, but it really shouldn't come to that given the support France has shown.

I'm not of the opinion we should send troops yet. I posted this before and I think it's worth reposting because some of you seem to hold a view that Greece is doing nothing, when in fact we are getting involved, and in my opinion, the right way:



Unless Turkey puts their citizens on the ground to fight in Libya, then I don't see any need for Greek troops in Libya. If we go in, the objective ought to be to defeat Turkish forces and to assist Haftar within reason.

No, the only reason Greece goes into Libya is to make Haftar beat the GNA and void its UN backed deal that sold off the southern Crete shelf. Nothing to do with fighting Turks - that is Dora talking about war again.. Trust me, she knows NOTHING.

As for the Turkish drilling ships. What percentage chance do you think it is that the Greeks will forcibly remove those ships? I put the percentage chance of that happening at 10%. What percent do you think it is that Greeks forcibly remove those ships?

[Filikieteria1821]

Some may find this guy extreme, but this guy gets it.

Very factual takes regarding Greece's blunders in foreign policy, especially with Turkey

[Reaper]

It is weird but Greece and Turkey speak two different political languages. Turkey speaks and enacts the language of conquest. Greece sounds more like this:

[Filikieteria1821]

Like Velopoulos said, Turkey doesn't care about international law and that we live in a world where the strongest get to set the playing field.

Greece, being weak minded and having lost in the asia minor campaign, cyprus, feel like their best way to move forward is to cease all in the name of EU/NATO.

Two completely different mindsets

[Don Giovanni]

Greece, acting through the EU, is setting an embargo on Turkish ships in the region. We're cutting off Turkish support from the front door while Haftar gets arms and support through the back. We're tipping the scales back in his favor. And this does answer your question concerning drilling off of Crete's shore.

Let's be perfectly clear. Greece is not neutral on Libya. No one here is suggesting that. And the question isn't whether Greece should have boots on the ground or not at this time, it should be whether we are prepared to put boots on the ground. That is something we may have to do. I think sending Greek troops in is a last resort, not the first resort. Turkey has only 35 soliders there, of whom 2 are now confirmed dead by Erdogan himself.

[Reaper]

Like Velopoulos said, Turkey doesn't care about international law and that we live in a world where the strongest get to set the playing field.

Greece, being weak minded and having lost in the asia minor campaign, cyprus, feel like their best way to move forward is to cease all in the name of EU/NATO.

Two completely different mindsets

It reminds me of one of those Star Trek episodes where the Enterprise visits a planet of recently conquered peoples. They always come out with the line: 'We are a peaceful people, we tried to negotiate with them but they would not listen. They took everything.'

[Don Giovanni]

With respect to French/EU backing:

https://www.defence-point.gr/news/el...toyrkias?pop=2

ΑΠΟΘΑΡΡΥΝΣΗ… ΟΧΙ ΑΚΟΜΑ ΑΠΟΤΡΟΠΗ
Πολλοί το άκουσαν αλλά λίγοι το κατάλαβαν, όταν η Γαλλίδα υπουργός Άμυνας μιλώντας για τη στάση της χώρας της με την εμπλοκή στρατιωτικών δυνάμεων σε περίπτωση που η Τουρκία επιχειρήσει να πραγματοποιήσει έρευνες σε ελληνικό “οικόπεδο” όπου εμπλέκεται η γαλλική Total, απέφυγε να χρησιμοποιήσει τον όρο “αποτρέπω / deter” (σ.σ. την Τουρκία εν προκειμένω).

Αντ’ αυτού χρησιμοποίησε τον όρο “μεταπείθω / dissuade” (στη γαλλική γλώσσα ασφαλώς χρησιμοποιείται ως “αποτροπή“, κάτι που δεν ισχύει ακριβώς στον αγγλοσαξονικό κόσμο και στη συζήτηση για την έννοια εντός του ΝΑΤΟ), διά της στρατιωτικής παρουσίας. Πρόκειται για έναν όρο που μάλλον βρίσκεται “ένα σκαλί” πιο κάτω από την στρατιωτική αποτροπή (σε τέτοια ερώτηση απαντούσε η Γαλλίδα ΥΠΑΜ).

Είναι ένας όρος γενικότερος, με τη στρατιωτική διάσταση να περιλαμβάνεται, αν και ως υποενότητα. Εκτίμηση του υπογράφοντα είναι ότι η επιλογή της λέξεως ήταν πιθανώς και σκόπιμη, όπως επίσης και ότι η ελληνική πλευρά το σημείωσε. Ίσως για να το διευκρινίσει στην εξέλιξη των συζητήσεων.

France might only offer a military presence, but it will likely be up to Greece to engage Turkey.

[Reaper]

France might only offer a military presence, but it will likely be up to Greece to engage Turkey.

And what are the chances of the Greeks actively stopping a Turkish drilling ship in Crete's seas or Turkish weapons convey to Libya?

Libya was clever move to protect Crete's sea. Greece chose to just give it away..

[aek66]

With respect to French/EU backing:

https://www.defence-point.gr/news/el...toyrkias?pop=2



France might only offer a military presence, but it will likely be up to Greece to engage Turkey.

i don't believe the semantics over french verbs is key here. i believe the french will support greece (french attacks on turkish vessels) if push comes to shove (turkish attack upon greek ships/greek territory).

to me, what is occurring is the french giving turkey 'a way out'.

i do believe turkey is playing a serious game of chicken. in no way, shape or form can turkey fight a ground war in libya. the logistics are more daunting than greece fighting a land war in cyprus.

greece must talk tough..the french can talk in a more soothing manner, while the geopolitical summits are opportunities for turkey to abandon libya and to allow the pro-french & greek libya strongman to emerge victorious..invalidating libya-turkey maritime boundries.

[Don Giovanni]

Greece will need clarification, but I agree that France will support us in the face of Turkish aggression. It will be up to our countrymen to confront Turkey.

[Reaper]

It will be up to our countrymen to confront Turkey.

Chances they do?

[Don Giovanni]

As I've said before and I think even others would agree, Greece can and will confront Turkey in our waters. When this is all over, Erdogan is going to have one hell of a time convincing his countrymen he came out on top. Then again, he may think as Saddam Hussein did when invading Kuwait, but it's his loss either way.

[Don Giovanni]

Things are not going well for Turkey in Libya. In all likelihood, Erdogan is downplaying the number of soldiers who were killed in Libya.

https://ahvalnews.com/libyan-conflic...-silence-libya

On Tuesday, Erdoğan said Turkish military advisers were only there to train and coordinate the Syrian rebels. He acknowledged the death of two Turkish personnel, a reduction from last week when he spoke of “a few martyrs”.

Also last week, the email and social media accounts of two columnists for nationalist Yeniçağ newspaper were hacked after they said Turkish soldiers in Libya had been killed and buried with no official funeral.

Soli Özel, international relations professor at Istanbul’s Kadir Has University, said few Turkish people backed the Libya intervention, particularly as Ankara had been sending thousands of troops into Syria’s Idlib province. Critics have accused the government of covering up the death of a colonel and others in Libya in an attempt to limit the political damage.

Whether its shipments reach Libya or not, Jalel Harchaoui, research fellow at Dutch think tank the Clingendael Institute, expected Turkey to continue to pursue an inconsistent policy in Libya.

“It is engaged in a logic that consists in announcing the military intervention in Libya in a very overt, official manner,” he told Ahval in a podcast. “If you are consistent with yourself then you should send 6,000 Turkish soldiers.”

Harchaoui acknowledged that Turkey could not do that because of the minimal public support, which is why it sent the Syrian mercenaries. Dimitar Bechev, Ahval contributor and research fellow at the Atlantic Council, said Erdoğan had to strike a balance between dispatching enough troops to shape the outcome without getting bogged down and suffering domestic blowback.

Bechev did not expect a few thousand Syrian rebels to shift the balance of power in Libya.

“If you want to minimise your footprint and just send Syrians, I don’t think that will do the trick,” he told Ahval in a podcast.

This is one reason why Harchaoui expects the next phase of the Libyan war to be much more intense, which will likely result in many more dead Turkish soldiers, and more cover-ups.

“Every clue points to a very negative destructive scenario, which is much worse than everything we have experienced over the last 10 months,” he said.

It's not time to throw Greek soldiers into that mess. Let's see if Turkey really does send thousands of their own soldiers to fight. When or if that happens, that's when Greece has to enter the fray.