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  • #46
    Greece did the right thing expelling the Libyan ambassador, but I agree the Turkish ambassador should have been expelled too.

    http://www.ekathimerini.com/247003/article/ekathimerini/news/mitsotakis-to-meet-trump-on-jan-7-sources-say

    Prime Minister Kyriakos Mitsotakis is to meet with US President Donald Trump in Washington on January 7, Kathimerini understands.


    Let's see what assurances, if any, come of this. I'm not optimistic.

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    • #47
      Telling teacher has failed since 1922. It wont change now. It makes the bully stronger.

      The only language Turkey speaks is force.

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      • #48
        I think that under the current atmosphere, prudence is important. In a straight out war, Turkey would win. They have the larger army and more resources. We have to be firm but remember, there are lives involved. It is easy to say - let's shoot down a plane or fire shots at their ships, but what that ultimately entails is lives will be lost. Preparedness is key. Build up our defenses, present our case to our allies (if we have any) and then prepare to our sovereignty. We must take the high ground and not get entangled in petty insults. Never stoop down to their level, for once you do, they will beat you with experience.

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        • #49
          Turkey wants the oil to further assert their own independence and self-sufficiency. It's very obvious that for all they're complaints about Cyprus acting unilaterally that this is really about Turkey taking the oil for themselves. They can deny it, but that's the truth.

          Trump complains a lot that countries aren't paying their fair share into NATO, but Greece exceeds the ratio. We pay a higher percentage of our GDP than any other country.

          Mitsotakis has to raise these points. He has to paint Greece as Kuwait and Erdogan as Saddam. And if I were him, I'd impress these points on to Pence, who is very much a Bush Republican.

          Erdogan is leading Turkey down the same path as Iran, Iraq, and Libya before them. They're becoming pariahs. And it's possible that this very issue will lead to Turkey acting unilaterally themselves all because they think Trump won't lift a finger, much like Saddam did with Kuwait when he thought Bush gave him a green light.

          So if the Turks are there exploring, Greece needs to aggressive and butt heads. Moreover, we can't depend on other countries. Greece needs to invest in the military. We need to get big enough and strong enough to discourage them. We have to gear up as if we're going to be at war with them and we need to do it with urgency.

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          • #50
            I don't think that is the correct strategy.

            What I would do is through diplomatic channels - I know I know.. it involves Greeks diplomats actually having to work - is to form an alliance of countries that will back Greece's unilateral declaration of 12 miles from land mass across all parts of the country - like Turkey has on its northern and southern coasts.. If the EU and the US/Russia like the idea, do it. Turkey can then go to war with Greece and the EU, Russia, US etc over a 12 miles eez that is legal across the globe and one that Turkey itself has declared..

            Next I would inform the EU, US, Russia - that Greece wants to be a real country.. or as Pinocchio would put it, a real boy! Meaning Greece, like Turkey, Italy, UK, Russia, - in fact every other nation on earth, has the right to fire upon armed jets flying within those 12 miles.

            The telling teacher act doesn't work. The telling teacher act has never worked for Greece.

            Once these first two processes have been completed and it will take years - Greece has a clearly delineated legal nation that can start thinking of oil and gas. At this moment in time, Greece is not a real nation. Just this..

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Brklyngrk View Post
              I think that under the current atmosphere, prudence is important. In a straight out war, Turkey would win. They have the larger army and more resources. We have to be firm but remember, there are lives involved. It is easy to say - let's shoot down a plane or fire shots at their ships, but what that ultimately entails is lives will be lost. Preparedness is key. Build up our defenses, present our case to our allies (if we have any) and then prepare to our sovereignty. We must take the high ground and not get entangled in petty insults. Never stoop down to their level, for once you do, they will beat you with experience.
              You shouldn't say that. No one here is advocating Greece to invade Turkey, but we can certainly defend our own territory and defeat them should they invade.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Don Giovanni View Post
                Greece did the right thing expelling the Libyan ambassador, but I agree the Turkish ambassador should have been expelled too.

                http://www.ekathimerini.com/247003/article/ekathimerini/news/mitsotakis-to-meet-trump-on-jan-7-sources-say



                Let's see what assurances, if any, come of this. I'm not optimistic.
                No assurances will be made as Trump's head is so far up Erdogan's ass that he has no idea what it means to protect an ally

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Brklyngrk View Post
                  I think that under the current atmosphere, prudence is important. In a straight out war, Turkey would win. They have the larger army and more resources. We have to be firm but remember, there are lives involved. It is easy to say - let's shoot down a plane or fire shots at their ships, but what that ultimately entails is lives will be lost.
                  This is the exact narrative that has won Turkey grey zones and has been eroding greek sovereignty for decades.

                  Greece - like 99% of normal countries - has to operate in the space between war and capitulation. Turkey has had its bluffs called before and done nothing. Turkey wants to know Greece is a real country. It has seen your above post for over 90 years now and knows we are not a real country. This is dangerous.

                  Finally. My Pappou taught me something and it is something many Greeks have failed to understand. No land is given by God to its people. It is earned. Greeks should only exist on land they can defend and are willing to defend. I know this cuts through the delicate soul of the Greek soft left whose mantra of no war, no fighting unless it is against the Greek right is so embedded deep in the skull of the political class's psyche. But real politik dictates that a nation that is not willing to fight is ripe to be bullied out their home. That is the nature of the world. That is what has been happening since day one.

                  When Greece was being liberated during the Greek revolution, many refused to fight the Turks and said exactly what you posted above. Previous Greek revolutions failed because of this thought process. Why risk our lives? If that thought process was a majority feeling in the Peloponnese in the 19th Century, Greece would not exist today.

                  Your post however is imo completely acceptable if our neighbours were France, Iceland, Canada, Estonia, Singapore... However, that is not the case. Turkey wants our land. Turkey wants us weak - this is not the time for straw men of a war between Greece and Turkey and also this is not a time for telling the teacher. It is a time to form a genuine strategy that protects Greek land and interests.

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                  • #54
                    No country is going to lift a finger if Turkey is sending ships and exploring for oil, which they are already doing. Greece will need to act aggressively and head off their ships. We are allowing their ships to operate in these waters. We shouldn't. We're being too indecisive, waiting and hoping for things to happen, and that empowers them.

                    It's important Mitsotakis reminds the US who their real friends are. France, Israel, and Egypt have signaled their support, it's time to get Trump to do the same so that Erdogan gets the message that he doesn't have as much freedom here as he thinks. This is why Trump is key. Right now Erdogan has big green light and Trump gave it to him.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Don Giovanni View Post

                      It's important Mitsotakis reminds the US who their real friends are
                      Unless Mitsotakis creates a strategy that involves a clearly delineated Greek EEZ, no one will listen. They will just give him kind words, publicly and privately like Greece has received since the 20s.

                      No one wants to clean Greece's nappy. Maybe you guys feel protected by Macron's nice words about poor Greece's situation this week. For me they are part of the problem. Greece has built its strategy on nice words and hope and the occasional little bit of anger. Basically the strategy of a second year degree student. This is not the strategy of a real nation. It is the strategy of a former soviet satellite like Estonia.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Filikieteria1821 View Post

                        No assurances will be made as Trump's head is so far up Erdogan's ass that he has no idea what it means to protect an ally
                        Mitsotakis is supposedly set to meet Trump. Let's see what happens before we go overboard, but like you I remain a pessimist.

                        As far as we should be concerned, Greece needs to take action and prevent their ships from drilling and exploring. We need to make that impossible for them. We should expel their ambassador. And we have to build up our defenses again as a matter of priority.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Reaper View Post
                          Unless Mitsotakis creates a strategy that involves a clearly delineated Greek EEZ, no one will listen. They will just give him kind words, publicly and privately like Greece has received since the 20s.
                          They'll do the same even if he does.

                          We need to paint a clear picture to Trump and try to get him to understand reason.

                          We're a reliable ally. He made a big stink about how NATO countries aren't paying their fair share, yet we go beyond our fair share. That's an important point to raise.

                          Moreover, we have to bring him around so that he understands that he has given Erdogan a green light to act as he pleases in the region. We have to paint Erdogan in the same terms as Saddam. We need to make it clear to him that Bush made that very mistake himself, because he wasn't clear enough, and as a consequence it bought him a war with Saddam. Trump has to understand he may bring about the same consequence upon himself if he fails to be clear about this.

                          If Trump doesn't do that, fine, but we need to make him know that we will confront the Turks and if it comes to a shooting war, then it will come to shooting war.

                          Right now, we only have ourselves are to blame, no one else, for letting the Turks get away with what they're doing precisely because we don't confront their ships, we don't expel their diplomats, and we're not talking sense to the US president.

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                          • #58
                            Greece's strategy is outdated and self-harming. Even the very weakness of it I am sure will annoy Trump. It annoys me. It is a disgusting strategy.

                            Trump will not listen to Mitsotakis. However if Greece has a genuine strategy for a future EEZ - a plan - at least Trump can visualise what Greece wants. If Greece wants the Turkey nukes in Thrace - Trump will listen.

                            Trump himself is not a Jesus figure. He will not pity Greece's pitiful state. Greece's situation will annoy him just as if you start flicking the whiskers of a strange dog. The dog wants confidence. Nothing worse than one who doesn't respect himself. If I were Trump and Mitsotakis approached me with the Greek semi capitulation, semi status quo bullshit strategy, I would tell him to fuck off back the Greece, seriously.

                            Everything begins with a proper strategy. Without that - nothing can be achieved.

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                            • #59
                              Countries have counted on Greece to be the nice, polite kid on the block. That needs to end. Greece needs to stop being the pushover and needs to assert itself. This needs to be the change in foreign policy. No matter allowing the turks run shit in our neck of the woods.

                              Greece isn't some easy wins like the Kurds, we have a legitimate army, with legitimate military assets. Time to start using our armed forces. I am not actively rooting for war as it would be disastrous for both sides, but Turkey does not mince words, nor does it hide its intentions. Right now, Turkey is testing the reaction of the international community and laying its plans and visions for the future. Trump backing up Erdogan, and also telling republicans to block the armenian genocide bill is all we need to see to recognize that the US is not a reliable ally for Greece.

                              Furthermore, the EU is spineless and all the while we are meant to think that Germany would back up Greece in a conflict (not happening). The only country that seems to possibly come to Greece's aid in conflict is France. Macron recognizes Germany's political weakness and seems like he recognizes that under Germany's leadership, the EU has 0 significant political impact.

                              Greece ignored its armed forces for far too long, allowed Turkey to play catchup, and also pushed the can down the road. We have ourselves to blame, but Greece ought to do everything in its power to ward off the impending storm.

                              First things first, figure out the EEZ between Greece/Cyprus & Greece/Egypt.

                              While you're politically figuring that out, talk to France about any and all developments, inquire about acquiring further Mirage jets (turks do not have these, and apparently the mirage is seen as better than the f16 in the aegean).

                              Greece also needs to mobilize its fleet to stretch from crete, kasos, karpathos, rhodes, kastelorizo, and further up the aegean. No space should be given to these criminals.

                              Lastly, Greece needs to support Haftar of Libya and begin to send some arms to support Haftar. Sarraj can get fucked at this point

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                              • #60
                                The ambiguity that Greece itself has fostered in the Aegean continues to damage the country. Nothing can be built upon until Greece starts the process of declaring 12 miles EEZ and all the diplomacy that goes with that. It is as simple as that.

                                Greece will never retake Poli. Greece will never retake swathes of Turkey and even if such a apocalyptic event happens to allow this, EEZs would be out the window by that stage.

                                Therefore - the real politik is simply to claim what this planet allows, a 12 mile EEZ and build from there..

                                Side issues that could help? Invite Israel and Egypt for a trilateral meeting and end it with signatures undoing the Turkish Libyan deal. Please read this Mitsotakis.
                                Invite Austria and France for meetings immediately to end Turkish advancement in EU talks.

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