Turkey

[AGP]

IMO the clamour for the F35 is misdirected.

It right now is the wrong plane for Greece. F35 is primarily for stealth operations, not straight out dog fights. When it comes to intercepting/dog fights Mirage, Rafale and F16s are going to be better.

In some ways its more important to stop Turkey getting the F35 than it is to have it. The F35 would allow them access into Greek airspace undetected. We have no need to go into Turkish airspace, just police what is our own.

For the needs, we have Rafale is a much better choice.

[aek66]

i agree that trying to shape the direction of this issue towards turkey losing arms/equip support from western powers is huge.

at the same time, i disagree about the f-35. the israelis flew f-35 missions against sites protected by s-400 in syria with success and have also flown undetected right to tehran and beirut. if war does come, greece will need to strike targets in turkey and perhaps occupied greek islands. the stealth tech is a game-changer and massive deterrent towards turkey making war upon greece.

from what i understand, the 18 rafales greece is getting are not of the f-3 variant.

[AGP]

I don't think right now the F35 does anything for Greece. Maybe when there are some developments on it, it will be more suitable.

Greece won't attack Turkey, the whole France relationship is built on Greece being reasonable. France want to keep it that way because it allows them to build a presence in the Eastern Med.

Re the Rafales I was under the impression 10 of them were used in combat missions in Libya by France. They successfully evaded Turkish air systems...

[Don Giovanni]

Maybe, I mean it is a big investment, but I believe aek66 hit it on the head. With respect to what you said, I would imagine the Russian-made systems (should the Turks go operational) will be more effective. Also there is a risk some incident takes place and drags us into war. At this point, that's a real possibility, but not high-risk. France could back us to the hilt depending on how that war breaks out.

[aek66]

greece doesn't need to attack turkey. i said if war occurs, greece will have a powerful tool in the f-35.

if greece does acquire f-35s, it will deter turkey from making war upon greece...because turkey has no stealth equivalent multi-purpose aircraft.

if turkey does make war upon greece, the f-35s will need to strike turkish shipyards (shipyards that are spitting out naval craft..including their attack helicopter carrier(s)), radar/ews, air fields, fuel/supply depots and naval bases supplying turkish forces.

the turks had no s400 systems set up in libya, so, it's a toss-up on s400 x rafale (4.5 gen). the consensus is the s400s will do much better vs. rafales (f3 variant and lesser) than against f-35s.

another excellent reason to purchase 5.0 gen multipurpose fighters is that it will force turkey to:

- beg germany/italy/u.k. to purchase the typhoon eurofighter
- compel turkey to purchase russian or chinese 5.0 gen fighters, which will anger the usa. you also know the russians or chinese will NOT sell turkey the best model, only model for export.

[Don Giovanni]

If it wasn't for you aek66, some of us, or at least myself, wouldn't be able to make heads from tails on this issue. Always good to read your comments, please keep sharing.

So investing in the F-35 program is the way to go. The only concern after then is if Turkey doesn't put the Russian anti-aircraft systems into operation and makes a big, big u-turn on their now strained US relations. I think there are some in the US, like Jim Jefferies, who see the Turks as capable of doing their dirty work for them in Libya and Syria, maybe elsewhere. On top of that, they want to keep Turkey as a bulwark against Russia and China, rather then letting them fall under their grasp, so they want to assuage them to a certain extent. There's a risk here no matter how we invest, but I think even in that case Greece could act as a check to a growing neo-Ottoman threat and I can believe the F-35 investment will play a role in that too because I can't imagine the Americans will ever full trust the Turks with those planes even if their relations improved a lot.

[aek66]

it's expensive...the actual aircraft (rafales and f-35s (24 f-35s for $3 billion)) along with maintenance costs. greece is already committed to spending $1.5 billion to upgrade 84 greek f-16s of various blocks, to f-16viper. one factor not considered - the f-35 has the range to attack turkey from france. in the event of an early turkish strike upon greek airfields, the greek f-35s can be stationed on corsica or continental france. such is the range, internal fuel tanks/mid-air refueling and stealth ability of the f-35. the reason i bring this up is because of turkey stocking up on ballistic missiles, i believe they have more than greece and france combined...surely, they would hit greek airfields with a 1st strike.

spending that money is well worth it, protecting your sovereignty in a dangerous neighborhood with an eternal bully. the top french rafale is the f-4 variant. i've only read that greece is not getting the top variant (top avionics and can carry more powerful weapons) and the actual number of new craft/used craft is debated.10 new/8 used or 12 used/6 new?? we are not privy to state secrets.

turkey is working on it's own 5.0 gen fighter. apparently, the u.k. is helping turkish tech with turbo-fan engines that are undetectable..advancing the stealth tech of the planned turkish 5.0 gen fighter. you can't rush science and this program is expected to be concluded in the 2030s, giving greece ample time to breathe.

another scientific race to enhance stealth abilities is developing AESA. turkey is developing it's own to install in it's aircraft, while greece looks to be relying on this expensive piece of avionics from others.

i'm no expert, but i have a few ex navy in my family and i do talk to former military co-workers. they have explained this to me in layman's terms.

my disappointment is with the apparent naval acquisitions.

[aek66]

So investing in the F-35 program is the way to go.

yes, yes, and yes.

if we were advising turkey, we'd tell turkey to drop the s-400s and stay with the f-35 project/purchases. some of those f-35s were to be utilized on turkish assault carriers. the f-35 are able to take off vertically, like harrier jets. due to turkey's poor decision with the s-400 missiles, it's assault carriers (2 planned, 1 almost complete) will only utilize attack helicopters. this is a relief to all in the med.

if we advised turkey to stick with f-35s, wouldn't we also say the same to greece? say $9 billion for 72 f-35s, which will be the backbone of your air force for the next 30 years.

[JVC]

yes, yes, and yes.

if we were advising turkey, we'd tell turkey to drop the s-400s and stay with the f-35 project/purchases. some of those f-35s were to be utilized on turkish assault carriers. the f-35 are able to take off vertically, like harrier jets. due to turkey's poor decision with the s-400 missiles, it's assault carriers (2 planned, 1 almost complete) will only utilize attack helicopters. this is a relief to all in the med.

if we advised turkey to stick with f-35s, wouldn't we also say the same to greece? say $9 billion for 72 f-35s, which will be the backbone of your air force for the next 30 years.

Remember one thing with the F35....America will hold the keys to its stealth capabilities, and they can lock anytime.

The f35 has a locked code system and requires it daily with new codes by the United states....so basically they can ground the entire force.

[aek66]

aren't the codes solely to keep american avionics?? if that was the case, i don't think anyone would have purchased the f-35.

i read an article that states the usa may bend and give japan f-35 codes because the japanese insist on some of their own avionics in their f-35 variant.

[aek66]

If it wasn't for you aek66, some of us, or at least myself, wouldn't be able to make heads from tails on this issue. Always good to read your comments, please keep sharing.

So investing in the F-35 program is the way to go. The only concern after then is if Turkey doesn't put the Russian anti-aircraft systems into operation and makes a big, big u-turn on their now strained US relations. I think there are some in the US, like Jim Jefferies, who see the Turks as capable of doing their dirty work for them in Libya and Syria, maybe elsewhere. On top of that, they want to keep Turkey as a bulwark against Russia and China, rather then letting them fall under their grasp, so they want to assuage them to a certain extent. There's a risk here no matter how we invest, but I think even in that case Greece could act as a check to a growing neo-Ottoman threat and I can believe the F-35 investment will play a role in that too because I can't imagine the Americans will ever full trust the Turks with those planes even if their relations improved a lot.

i'd take a peek at the israeli air force and what they possess - not too dissimilar from greece, if greece goes the way of the f-35. my issue would be greece having too many different models: mirage/f-16/rafale/f-35, while the meat and potatoes of the israeli air force are f-16s (224) and f-35s (24 + 50 more).

if the whole point of the build-up is to protect energy resources, it can be assumed that those exact resources will pay for much of the build-up. 84 f-16v + 18 rafale + 24 f-35 bodes well for greece for the foreseable future.

the flip side is the naval build-up.

[Don Giovanni]

By the end of this month, the two countries hope to meet for exploratory discussions that could eventually resolve the maritime issue, perhaps through third-party arbitration or referral to the international court in The Hague.

Nothing less than The Hague if it gets to that point.

But first, the two sides need to agree on “terms of reference” that specify the issues they are prepared to submit for arbitration. Each side has recently tried to bolster its negotiating position by making agreements with governments along the eastern Mediterranean coast — Turkey with Libya, and Greece with Egypt.

Likely a stumbling block that will keep the conflict frozen.

Biegun’s sharp language and Pompeo’s trip both signal U.S. concern that Erdogan has overreached in his regional power play, offending even his erstwhile supporter, President Trump. As the election nears, the administration may also have its eye on the Greek American vote, a factor in some swing states.

Pompeo will reinforce this message with a visit to Greece on Sept. 27 and 28. He is scheduled to tour a Greek naval base at Souda Bay with Mitsotakis and discuss Greek-U.S. military cooperation. Pompeo won’t be visiting Ankara on the trip, perhaps a sign that he and other U.S. officials are peeved by Erdogan’s recent attempts to project power in the region.

[Reaper]

Trump would win many greek votes if he promises to fast track the f-35s to Greece.

[LoneHorseman]

I don't know V, most Greeks in the US reside in Blue states that are going to vote for Biden overwhelmingly, ie. NY, NJ, Mass, ILL etc. Maybe New Hampshire or Virginia, Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Florida, really don't know if there are overwhelming amount of Greeks in those states.

[Reaper]

I don't know V, most Greeks in the US reside in Blue states that are going to vote for Biden overwhelmingly, ie. NY, NJ, Mass, ILL etc. Maybe New Hampshire or Virginia, Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Florida, really don't know if there are overwhelming amount of Greeks in those states.

Would you say most Greek Americans are Dems? Certainly all my US cousins are..

[LoneHorseman]

^^^
Great question, my relatives in the neighboring state of Washington traditionally are Dems, but are growing frustrated with the Democratic leadership in their state, with their lunatic Governor and the crazy mayor of Seattle. I live in Vancouver BC Canada and with certainty, I can tell you Greek Canadians lean left with the Liberal Party of Canada because of their affinity for leader Justin Trudeau's dad Pierre, who was Prime Minister when a large contingent of Greeks emigrated in the late 60's and 70's

[tantra]

^^^
Great question, my relatives in the neighboring state of Washington traditionally are Dems, but are growing frustrated with the Democratic leadership in their state, with their lunatic Governor and the crazy mayor of Seattle. I live in Vancouver BC Canada and with certainty, I can tell you Greek Canadians lean left with the Liberal Party of Canada because of their affinity for leader Justin Trudeau's dad Pierre, who was Prime Minister when a large contingent of Greeks emigrated in the late 60's and 70's

even though most canadian greeks vote for trudeau, i think 90% of males and 60% of females are trumpsters

[JVC]

I think most Greek parents in Canada have a special bond with the Liberals because of father Trudeau....he did indeed help the early European communities throughout Canada. The next generations I feel there's no bond and are mostly a swing vote. That said we need this current government in Canada to go....they're terrible! Canada will eventually reach a point where provinces will separate. This government is standing back and watching Alberta sink....we're a resource economy and that jerk is pushing environment....we hold projects back, keep oil and gas in the ground, but then import it???? How is this rational?

[Brklyngrk]

I think most Greeks are registered democrats but have started to become disillusioned with the current progressive movement. Democrats have been traditionally pro labor which resonated with a lot of the immigrants who came over years ago. I have seen a switch lately to a more republican mentality. The Democrats of their years are not the same ones as of today. Having said that, I believe Biden has endeared himself to the Greek community over the years. If that is enough, I am not sure.

[aek66]

i gave your post a like, but most greeks i know, find biden weak and pathetic, a sell-out to what he once was: pro-police and tough on crime and criminals. seeing what biden has become politically and observing how his son was enriched by russian and ukrainian riff-raff, tells me all i need to know about this weak, pathetic shyster.

you can't strive for and realize the 'american dream' if there isn't law and order and businesses needing to recover and regroup from looting and property damage every 3 months.