Turkish Defence Minister wants Greece and Armenia to be removed.

[Reaper]

Greece's entire national perception has to change, but I'm afraid that the root of the cause is societal and in order to implement societal change, decades must pass. By then, I too think Turkey would have made too much headway militarily, and globally.

Greeks are Ottoman citizens mentally again. After the revolution up until the 1920s - Greeks were seeing Turkey and Turks as vulnerable Asiatic conquerors living on and off former Byzantine lands, former Byzantine citizens. Greeks were the first to take back swathes of Ottoman land. Greeks felt entitled to Ottoman land. Greeks were all naming their kids classical greek names. There was a clear connection between ancient Greece, Byzantium and modern Greece. In the 50s - something changed and I don't just think it was the Pogroms in Turkey. Greeks suddenly became Ottoman citizens again. Crying to West whenever Turkey did something they didn't like. A weak military. A weak - almost non existent foreign policy. Massive brain drain. Socialism got hold slowly.. apologists for Islam - culminating in a supposed Greek conservative - Dora Bakoyiannis stating that Islam is a wonderful religion - especially for women..

Curious, the Washington Post constantly gives Erdogan space to push his bullshit narratives, when was the last time a Greek government pushed a narrative in international media?

Greeks do not have the basic intelligence to even prepare a narrative - let alone sell it to the world. There are countries in the EU like Austria who are desperate to keep Turkey away from the EU. Greece does nothing to join forces with them on this issue - use the Austrians to highlight Greek/EU borders not being respected. As I said - everything Greece has done the last 100 years has made Turkey stronger.

As for straw men - 'Greece can't beat Turkey in war' 'Take back Poli' 'If Greece shoots down a Turkish jet it is instant war' All these are just that - straw men. Greece doesn't need a war with Turkey. Greece can operate in the space in between but because it has not, that space has got smaller and Turkey's space bigger.

I don't think it will change. The papers every day cry that Tsipras is no longer leader. Greece is a left wing nation.

[ThrylosG7]

Good post.







It's the spirit in which Turkey acts that is the issue. And it's obvious NATO and the US don't wish to involve themselves and are willing to let the Turks act as they please because they need them more than they need us. That's what all of this comes down to.

Agreed - because both Greece and Turkey are both in NATO - they use that angle to justify some of the actions - It seems that not all Turkish violations are Turkish military sponsored , rather they are for NATO purposes , to which the Greeks know in advance where these flights will happen as the information is shared among all members - so when the Turks go on these NATO missions or flights they dont bother with any notification since they have already shared the info with the other members . America pointed this out that they dont share or advise either ..We have it seems been adding these flights to the stats for violations. So as usual Greeks look like political bumbling fools who get no diplomatic respect.

[Filikieteria1821]

https://defencereview.gr/yperptisi-t...hen-nisidas-r/

Σύμφωνα με ανακοίνωση του ΓΕΕΘΑ πραγματοποιήθηκε υπερπτήση τουρκικού UAV άνωθεν νησίδας Ρω στο σύμπλεγμα της Μεγίστης.

[Don Giovanni]

Erdogan visits Trump tomorrow. Trump's former National Security Adviser, John Bolton of "Iraq has WMDs" infamy, reportedly told a private group of financiers the following:

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/don...sions-n1080651

Bolton told the gathering of Morgan Stanley’s largest hedge fund clients that he was most frustrated with Trump over his handling of Turkey, people who were present said. Noting the broad bipartisan support in Congress to sanction Turkey after President Recep Tayyip Erdogan purchased a Russian missile defense system, Bolton said Trump’s resistance to the move was unreasonable, four people present for his speech said.

Bolton said he believes there is a personal or business relationship dictating Trump’s position on Turkey because none of his advisers are aligned with him on the issue, the people present said.

The Trump Organization has a property in Istanbul, and the president's daughter Ivanka Trump attended the opening with Erdogan in 2012. Though it’s a leasing agreement for use of the Trump name, Trump himself said in a 2015 interview that the arrangement presented “a little conflict of interest” should he be elected.

I think it's preposterous that the president is genuinely conflicted by a branding agreement in Turkey. Perhaps Bolton believes as much because that's the standard operating procedure in Washington, which is believable.

Putting that aside, Trump does seem to view Erdogan as a possible ally. They're kindred spirits. Erdogan is similarly beleaguered by a Deep State and where Trump puts America first, Erdogan puts Turkey first. Trump may also fancy Erdogan as a man of action who can reliably get things done.

I believe Trump needs to distance himself from Erdogan and make it clear to Erdogan that Turkey is on the wrong path. He has to draw a clear and visible line between himself and Erdogan so that Erdogan's misguided pursuits don't get tangled with Trump. Failing to do so would result in Trump painting himself as some kind of appeaser.

He has to tell Erdogan that he plans to remove the US base from Incilirk. Those nukes could be at risk in the future and become a very unnecessary bargaining chip for Erdogan.

He has to pressure Erdogan to encourage Turkey to withdraw from Syria. He can't let them act as a US surrogate to maintain pressure on Assad. Failure to do so will give Turks more leeway in Syria and beyond. If Trump doesn't want to ruffle Erdogan's feathers and instead looks to seek further areas to work with him, he'll be making a mistake. It would be the pursuit of a cursed alliance. And to make matter worse, Trump is surrounded by treacherous advisers, like Bolton. They claim they care about the Kurds, but the reality is these same advisers would just as quickly work with the Turks if it meant keeping hold of something, anything, in Syria that could be used at a later date to either remove Assad or apply meaningful pressure on Assad.

On the positive, should Trump appease Erdogan, there is still the possibility Trump will walk away from US "obligations" like NATO, which could have the ultimate effect of what Trump should say and do in his meeting tomorrow.

Bolton said that if Trump were re-elected:

Trump could go full isolationist — with the faction of the Republican Party that aligns with Paul’s foreign policy views taking over the GOP — and could withdraw the U.S. from NATO and other international alliances, three people present for his remarks said.

Macron wants to found the EU army. That could go hand-in-hand with the US leaving NATO and would likely leave Turkey on her own. That could have the effect of fundamentally reshaping Turkey's relations with the West and put an end to the West's courting of Turkey.

It's still to early to say this will come to pass, but it seems we are heading there one way or the other. I hope Trump has the sense to seize on that rationale tomorrow.

[Filikieteria1821]

I will not be voting for Trump in 2020 because of his continued love for all things Erdogan and Turkey. As a Greek-American, I cannot support how he's handled Turkey.

He has proven, despite all his advisors warnings and advice, that he has some weird affection for Erdogan and Turkey. Although I do not buy the russia hoax, or the ukraine whistleblower shit that's going on right now, it's funny that democrats haven't gone after Trump for his love for Turkey, because of all things to bring to front, it may be the one with the most legs.

Trump may or may not be doing this all because of his business ties - but as far as I can tell, he's shown that his foreign policy is not in line with common sense.

Turkey isn't some major power that America couldn't demolish in .02 seconds. And although Trump isn't the first president to look the other way to Turkey's wrong doings, he's the first president to look the other way when Turkey's entire foreign policy relies on anti-west sentiment, and ethnic cleansing.

I'm still waiting for the sanctions for the s400 purchase, which I suspect, will never happen

[Reaper]

it's funny that democrats haven't gone after Trump for his love for Turkey, because of all things to bring to front, it may be the one with the most legs.

I suspect the democrats love Turkey even more than Trump. By this I mean the democrats in congress. In the UK all the 3 major parties adore Turkey too, only Farage doesn't.

[Filikieteria1821]

Quite the contrary, in the US, more republicans are sympathetic to Turkey, while a large group of Democrats have come out and publically condemned Turkey. Senator Menendez, and a few others are heading legislation to get sanctions on turkey

[Don Giovanni]

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/12/u...ly-turkey.html

Mr. Erdogan predicted in a television interview this year that a private dialogue between Berat Albayrak, his son-in-law and finance minister, and Mr. Kushner would soon put “back on track” the vexed relations between Washington and Ankara. “The bridge works well in this manner,” Mr. Erdogan said.

“Backdoor diplomacy,” Mr. Albayrak called his work with Mr. Kushner.

Both leaders appear to favor family or business connections as back channels, several advisers to Mr. Erdogan said, in part because both share a suspicion that the agencies of their own governments may be conspiring against them.

The term “deep state,” in fact, first emerged in Turkey decades ago, long before it came into vogue among Trump supporters, and Mr. Erdogan’s advisers say he has cultivated Mr. Trump by emphasizing their shared struggles against such entrenched forces within their governments.

“The U.S. has an established order that we can call a deep state — of course they are obstructing,” Mr. Erdogan said this spring, explaining his hopes for the “bridge” between sons-in-law. “These obstructions are one of our main troubles.”

[Don Giovanni]

The problem is the US wants to retain positive relations with Turkey as a bulwark against Russia and as a regional partner in the Mid East. They hoped to see Erdogan removed only because he was a loose canon. They couldn't control him. Erdogan is legitimately looking out for Turkey's interests. His intentions in Syria matter little to the US. It's really about whether the US can somehow retain leverage over Assad and keep him under pressure. They'd like to see Erdogan go, but they have more pressing priorities and in the end the US doesn't want to see Turkey defect to the Russians.

All this talk of sanctions is just about getting Turkey to accept US weapons, instead of Russian ones, and to put Turkey back under America's thumb. Trump is going a different route to achieve the same end. He and Erdogan are kindred spirits and Trump sees Erdogan as a reliable man of action who can get things done in the Mid East. This is the reason for their dalliance (also because of past personal relations Trump established with the Turks).

It's bad for Trump, because Erdogan's next misadventure, like the one in Syria, will be used to paint Trump as an appeaser, a modern Neville Chamberlain. Already the wagons are circling with respect to Cyprus' oil deposits. It's also likely now that Erdogan will be emboldened to crack down even further against Kurds and others, like journalists. This will create a perception problem for Trump. Today already Turkey has re-arrested a journalist who had spent three years in jail and was granted a supervised released just this week.

In the long run, Trump may inadvertently sour Western relations with Turkey by ending NATO. An EU army, or the emergence of a new European military alliance in place of NATO, could emerge and likely that would leave Turkey out of the equation. France and Germany on their own can't achieve what a united Europe can. Accepting Turkey into Europe is suicide. And even if the US maintains positive relations with Turkey, Europe may ultimately view Turkey as an adversary rather than a partner, as was the case in the past in face of the Ottoman/Islamic threat.

[Reaper]

Quite the contrary, in the US, more republicans are sympathetic to Turkey, while a large group of Democrats have come out and publically condemned Turkey. Senator Menendez, and a few others are heading legislation to get sanctions on turkey

I don't think the Democrats will ever even have the guts to suggest Turkey is kicked out of NATO or the nukes be moved whatever Erdogan does. Turkey is untouchable like Pakistan/China etc.

[Don Giovanni]

Democrats did the do the tougher talking this time. Trump can't help himself. Just like with Kim Jung-Un firing missiles as he pleases, the president doesn't get how he emboldens the worst of "friends." It's only going to be a matter of time before Erdogan becomes a major pariah and the finger will be pointed back on Trump when questions are asked as to how that came to pass.

[Filikieteria1821]

I fully expect that due to Trump's relationship with Erdogan, and no legitimate runner against Trump, both Cyprus and Greece's odds of coming into military conflict against Turkey by 2020-2024 will be likely.

Erdogan sees he has Trump in his hand, and he's also playing with the Russian's, so why not try to extend Turkey's hold in the aegean and east med? Trump won't tell him no, and I doubt the Russian's will either.

[Reaper]

I fully expect that due to Trump's relationship with Erdogan, and no legitimate runner against Trump, both Cyprus and Greece's odds of coming into military conflict against Turkey by 2020-2024 will be likely.

Erdogan sees he has Trump in his hand, and he's also playing with the Russian's, so why not try to extend Turkey's hold in the aegean and east med? Trump won't tell him no, and I doubt the Russian's will either.

Sounds like the Greeks may actually have to start creating a strategy besides sitting on their knuckles..

[Don Giovanni]

We'll have to spend more on the military. It's that simple.

[Reaper]

We'll have to spend more on the military. It's that simple.

Yea, but don't you think money without a plan is a waste? No point paying billions for some new planes just to instruct them to play with Turkish armed bombers over Greek islander's heads.. sometimes...