General Chat

[Dean97]

I’ve been wanting to express my thoughts lately about the current state of the national team. I’ve been thinking and trying to wrap my head around what the actual problems are. I wanted to point out a few things about the team more specifically about the current pool of players we have at our disposal. I don’t want to mention the EPO or the decisions they have and haven’t made in terms of Greek football. That’s another topic for another day. But the EPO is largely at fault.

It has come to me that the players we currently have aren’t really good enough to take us to a major tournament and I don’t know how long we have to wait until we actually do. I’ve gone passed the point now saying that this player shouldn’t play and that player is better because in reality Greek football has a problem and is way behind most countries as we all know.

We have to look at the reasons why we have failed for so long. Our players for one are not playing at the highest levels and are not challenging themselves to be more than what they are. For example we all thought players like Bouzoukis, Limnios, Fountas and Donis we’re going to become major stars when they were 18-19 years old. They showed quality and spark and were promising. Now it’s been a good 5 years and these players haven’t made Greece or there careers better. Sure some have done well in mediocre leagues, some have had injuries constantly and some didn’t make the best career choices.

But when is this dark period going to end. We can’t keep relying on Manolas and Sokratis to save the team. They are not the answer and Fetfatzidis who I am a big fan of isn’t the answer either. One person can’t do everything. We haven’t got players playing regularly in the top 5 leagues like England, Germany, Spain etc. We also don’t have players playing in the champions league regularly. The only one that is trying his luck and doing well for himself is Tsimikas. He’s still young at 25 and is still improving. He’s someone we should be proud of. I didn’t come to trash on the national team but I wanted to take me being biased out and actually be honest and look at the reality.

Reality is we have a few players at a good age like Tsimikas and Mavropanos who are doing well in leagues that are of a high level. That’s only 2. 95% of our players are playing in leagues like Austria, Holland, Greece, Turkey, Portugal, Denmark and other lower quality leagues. Experienced players like Manolas, Sokratis, Samaris, Tachtsidis and Zeca are slowing down now and aren’t really going to help the national team anymore. I think the Greek league has regressed over the years. Only Olympiakos has kept the high standards that everyone should emulate.

It just amazes me that we can’t produce a handful of high quality players that can take us to a major tournament. Promising players like Tzolis, Alexandropoulos and Tzolakis are very promising and talented players for us but aren’t at the level to take us to a tournament yet. Tzolis is on the bench for Norwich, Tzolakis is playing for Oly B and Alexandropoulos who is our best CM in my opinion can only get so far in this current PAO set up.

We don’t have real leaders either. We have major problems at RB and CM. We even have problems at CAM and ST. Fortounis has been injured all season and we haven’t got someone at a decent level scoring every week. We have only one decent goal keeper at best aswell. Our best position, CB has declined in quality after excluding Manolas, Sokratis and Siovas. Talented players like Retsos and Galanopoulos have been plagued with injuries there whole career and will find it very hard to reach there potential at this time. Injuries, poor choices and the EPO have been detrimental to football in Greece as a whole. Also Greek clubs neglecting young Greek players and playing foreigners has also been detrimental. These failures could also be a generational thing too.

Maybe I just have to accept it is what it is but I can’t accept other countries like with a lesser population than us producing a good handful of quality players than us and playing in more competitive leagues. Also less quality nations are evolving year by year while Greece are at a stand still. I just don’t know if playing our best possible players currently is the answer anymore. Any type of coach we get now won’t last as this current EPO are continuously sabotaging Greek football. We could get Mourinho, Pep or Klopp in and still get no where with this current EPO.

I seriously hope for better days for Greek football, I’m hoping for improvements and with AEKs new stadium I hope this is the start for better things to come for Greek football.

[Brklyngrk]

Taking a look at what many would consider our best players in position..

Douvikas(Pavlidis)

Tziolis Fortounis Masouras

Alexandroupolos Galanopoulos

Tsimikas Manolas Mavropanos Sliakis(Androutsos)

Vlacho


Starting from the back,

GK - Vlacho is good, solid keeper. Not world class but good enough. B/B+

LB - Tsimikas is good, solid LB. Not world class but good enough. B/B+

CB - Manolas is good, solid CB. Not world class but good enough. B, should be a B+ but is not currently in form.

CB - Mavropanos is good, up and coming CB. Not world class but good enough. B+ but can potentially be an A.

RB - D - No real good options here.

CM - Alexandropoulos - C+ - Up and coming but needs to show more to get to the next level. Has potential but needs work, still very young.

CM - Galanopoulos - C - Solid but needs to show more. Can be good but not healthy enough, needs to stay injury free.

AM - Fortounis - B- - Solid AM but gets hurt alot, low work rate. If he can stay healthy and be productive, can be B but he's time is slowly passing.

LW - Tziolis - C- - Up and coming but needs to show ALOT more to get to the next level. Has loads of potential but needs to work, still very young. If he can't get time at Norwich, needs to leave. Can be an A but needs to put in the work.

Striker - Douvikas - B- - Young, solid striker. Very fast but needs to work on his game. Progressing though and is on the right path.

RW - Masouras - C+/B - Solid winger, fast. Put him at RW to make room for Tziolis. I feel that if he could just finish, he could potentially make a big club. That is the only thing holding him back.

Notable Backups - Hatzi (potential always hurt), Mitoglou (young, potential), Giannoulis (needs to find a new club), Pelkas (solid), Pavlidis (doesn't show up for the NT), Limnios (potential, still young but needs alot of work), Retsos (if he ever stayed healthy, maybe)

Overall - Being objective, currently probably a C+ team. Our strength is our defense. We have potential if our players develop but we need work and players to stay healthy (no depth). Not hopeless though. Can get results if the right system is implemented.

[Dean97]

Great post and I agree that’s the best line up we can offer. I’d put Ninis and Fetfa in there still but realistically they won’t be called. But that’s our best in every position. Douvikas is on the right path. Tzolis needs to be given more game time to show his potential.

We need CMs that can break up play and help the team go forward at the same time. If we play CAMs at the DM spot it won’t work all the time as you need players to also defend and break up play. Against smaller teams we can put a 10 in the 6 spot. Alexandropoulos and Galanopoulos are good at breaking up play and the best CMs we got that can go forward with the ball aswell. Zeca and Kourbelis aren’t players that can control the game and are only known to break up play. Bouchalakis is very average at best and can’t be relied on.

We should trust Alexandropoulos to control and lead the midfield as he’s got it all.

Our best wingers are Tzolis and Masouras. Limnios can be in the same conversation but he needs to be more consistent. He has talent though.

RB is a major issue but at the same time we make it hard for ourselves by not trying Giannis Masouras or Kotsiras there. Both players aren’t world class but should be a given a chance.

Depth is an issue at the moment. That starting 11 is our best but we don’t have players who are better or at least on the same level to replace those players if need be. Like is Retsos as good as Manolas, is Limnios as good as Masouras, is Giannoulis as good as Tsimikas? In my opinion no but as we’ve said we need our young players to develop and make a decent career for themselves like playing in a top 5 league, which will take a lot of hard work, talent and dedication. It would also help a lot if teams in the Greek league played there youth more too. Luckily we have b teams now who get to show there true potential.

[Reaper]

A fascinating conversation and one that seems eternal in Greece.

For me I can't look past structure. A wise man once said a game of football is decided on details. I agree with this and this only. This is the foundation stone of football. The ball is round - there are 100s of variables - form of players, players selected, pitch condition, ref, motivation, luck etc etc. What decides a result? The details.

So what is the most fundamental detail for a victory? For me - 11 footballers in their correct positions. Not 10 footballers and one camel. Not 11 footballers but 3 left backs on the pitch etc etc. The only way is 11 players in the positions they play regularly for their club. We have seen since 2004 a complete mis-match of players.. playing all positions possible and we have suffered massively as a result.

Secondly - we must entertain the idea of football philosophy. This has to be merged with outcome. For example, do we defend, rely on set pieces and create nothing? Do we have an attacking side like spain? Do we have a balanced dutch style team that can attack and defend with fluency? We have no philosophy. Some days 3 CBs some days 2.. Some days no actual striker but an AM as a FW. Sometimes 3 DMs.. Sometimes we play a team of amateurs as if we are playing Brazil and sit back to defend for 90 mins. There is no consistency. No team can settle like this. A team needs an identity. We had the fewest shots in goal in all of Europe. VS - whatever philosophy he pretended to have - it was in fact deeply defensive and massively ineffective - at every level.

Finally - players themselves touching on what the others have said. Do we have the players to even qualify? Put it like this. I said in the last 3 campaigns, before a ball was kicked, the players selected will not qualify. I could already see how we would concede and not score enough - see above two points. No balance, no philosophy, anarchic lineups, tactics changing daily, players playing new positions for the first time in their lives in key games. We never even stood a chance. I believe Greece produces enough decent players to qualify in all of our last quals. I doubt they could get too far in the actual tournaments, but we certainly have the players to qualify.

Remedy? With the EPO and the managers they select there is none. We have not been playing football for years, we have been playing a type of game related to football, but it is not football. It is just the tactics of a 11 year old picking the formation on FIFA to play with a friend at a party. 3 LBs, 3 DMs - couple of strikers thrown on in the last 5 mins in desperation.. it is just a bit of fun. Not serious.

Positives? New stadia. That is it. The better the stadia, the easier players like Tzavellas, Kourbelis, Bakakis and friends get found out. Massive arenas where the fans are miles from the players shields failure. Look at Oly. I watched almost every game for the last 10 years. A player makes a mistake at the Karaiskaki, fans notice. Another mistake.. fans get impatient. One more mistake? Fans boo and a 99% he is rested the next game. The fans then in effect decide the lineups and Greek fans know more about football than Greek sports journalists and those greedy bureaucrats at the EPO. Stadiums like the OAKA and Toumba stop this process of meritocracy and you get players selected for the NT who are not at the required level.

[Dean97]

Excellent post. I agree with that the team needs an identity and there was never any consistency with JVS and his tactics. Reaper you’ve said many times in the past that you can’t afford to even have one limited player in your teams these days and I totally agree. One player can’t carry a team either, everyone has to do there part and if they don’t problems will occur.

I’ve seen many times where we played football in patches and we looked like we were playing well, only for Bakasetas to have a poor touch and lose possession easily to the opposition. This has happened many times. Players like Kourbelis and Zeca many times looked clueless as to what to do when going forward and keeping possession.

Bakakis/Mavrias getting caught out time after time. Bringing back Tzavellas who is not even 6ft as a CB who most likely cost us that game against Kosovo which ended up as a draw. You must have tall CBs or players that are at least 6ft and over. I don’t blame him I blame the coach for picking these players. This is what sabotaged the team.

How can you play attacking football with these players? I remember when Galanopoulos was playing and we looked better going forward but nothing amazing. I can relate about the stadiums as I’ve been to a few Oly games at Karaiskaki and the fans would definitely boo and notice when players make mistakes. A game is won by scoring goals and every position needs to have its best players otherwise what chance does a team have to succeed. We need a coach who who can help the team defend and attack as one.

Until we have an EPO that genuinely loves football and Greek football then I don’t see any improvements in terms of coaches and player selections. Stadiums will help once PAO and PAOK get there’s up and running too. AEK is almost finished there one… But the EPO have to care about the success of Greek football.